2.Patrick Sanford - Cross/Redirect
1,421 linesJUDGE EVERETT: Cross-examination?
CROSS- EXAMINATION BY MS. FULFORD:
MS. FULFORD: Sorry. I'm going to trip over that if I try to approach you, so I'm trying to get in front of it.
Good morning.
PATRICK SANFORD: Good morning.
MS. FULFORD: You've been testifying for quite some time.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Listened to a lot of phone calls.
PATRICK SANFORD: we have.
MS. FULFORD: And now it's cross-examination, so on behalf of Mrs. Adelson, I need to talk to you about those things.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: we may replay all of them.
I'm kidding. I'm not going to do that.
PATRICK SANFORD: Thank you.
MS. FULFORD: I wouldn't do that to anybody in this room.
But I do have some questions. I can't remember if you testified to it on direct or not, but you're the lead investigator in this case, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: For the Federal Bureau of Investigation, I am.
MS. FULFORD: Thank you. And I don't think you said exactly. I remember you said you got involved early on. what does "early on" mean with respect to the day that Dan Markel was killed?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe the homicide occurred on a Friday. I was called on Monday, that following Monday, so -- the 18th, 19th, 20th -- around the 21st.
MS. FULFORD: Thank you. And when you became involved, who kind of updated you with, here's what we got, and to discuss with you your input of where it should go?
PATRICK SANFORD: I got the initial call from Investigator Scott Cherry. He initially called me to ask me to assist with some leads basically outside the -- outside the state of Florida basically and outside of Tallahassee.
MS. FULFORD: You're obviously here testifying for the State.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: So I'm not sure we're going to agree on everything; is that fair? But I think you could agree with me that my client, Donna Adelson, when she has something on her mind -- I mean, you've reviewed the materials, right, the e-mails and you've listened to the phone calls and text messages, et cetera?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: If she's got something to say, something on her mind, she writes about it and she writes a lot about it; is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sometimes, yes. Yes. On certain matters, yes.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And kind of the opposite of that, her son, Charlie Adelson, when he's got something on his mind, he can't shut up, can he?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: I mean, he sometimes goes on forever. And in these phone calls, you can actually hear his mother, Donna, just going, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And finally, when she can, she changes the subject, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And from all of the phone records that you have reviewed, not just for this time period, they talk on the phone a lot, don't they?
PATRICK SANFORD: They do.
MS. FULFORD: And when they talk, sometimes they talk for a long time, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: would you agree with me that sometimes if you don't hear an entire conversation and you just hear a little part of it, you might not be able to put that into context with what the discussion is; is that fair?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's sometimes fair, yes.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. You said that there were leads that you were going to follow up with respect to folks who were outside of the state of Florida, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am, among other leads.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And I don't -- I don't want to put words in your mouth, but were those witnesses? were those suspects?
PATRICK SANFORD: Some of both. we were also trying to track down the green Prius. So there were quite literally thousands of green Priuses throughout the state and the country that were potential suspect vehicles.
MS. FULFORD: So you followed up on leads of where green Priuses were outside the state of Florida; is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: Outside and inside. Outside of Tallahassee is fair to say.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. All right. Let's see here. Just some notes about some of the calls. Would you agree that there were several times in those calls where people were talking about traffic, how heavy the traffic was in one location or another? I think Katie does it some and Charlie does it some. Do you recall that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Talking about traffic in South Florida?
MS. FULFORD: Yes.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Now, during the calls that we listened to -- these are wiretap calls that have been recorded. That was your testimony?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And during those calls, at the point that Charlie Adelson starts to be pretty concerned about, what the heck is going on, why is my family continuing to be contacted about that, you can see a change in his demeanor, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Certain calls you could, yes.
MS. FULFORD: I mean, there are a couple of calls between him and Katie where he's pretty angry and he's letting her know that, that something needs to be done. Somebody needs to call this number and figure out what's going on, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: His characterization of being angry, I don't know about. But, yes, he was trying to encourage her to find out who was doing this. Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And, I mean -- yeah, I don't want you to gauge somebody's character. But, I mean, he was getting aggressive with her; is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't think he was -- my opinion, if that's what you're asking me, my opinion is I don't think he was angry at her. I think he was upset with the situation.
MS. FULFORD: Right. He was showing that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes. He was being -- yeah, he was -- he was showing that he was not happy. Correct.
MS. FULFORD: All right. So maybe his anger isn't at her, but he's wanting her to do something that's not been done so he keeps on about it, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes. He's very anxious. Yes, I would agree with that.
MS. FULFORD: And in some of the calls with her, he shows concern about whether this is somebody related to the people who have committed the killing. Maybe it's the police. But he's letting her know that he's concerned that this might be somebody who's involved some way, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I agree.
MS. FULFORD: when they're talking about the brother in Broward County, Katie, you can tell in those calls she knows Luis Rivera has been incarcerated in Broward County and now she's getting concerned, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right. She's concerned. I wasn't so sure he was catching on to that part of it.
MS. FULFORD: Yeah, not that it was Luis Rivera but --
PATRICK SANFORD: Right.
MS. FULFORD: -- but he was concerned about it, and then she became concerned about it?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And his discussions about being worried about it, those were with Katie, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: when he talks to his mother, he's always reassuring her everything is fine. Sometimes it's 99 percent sure, a hundred percent sure, a thousand percent sure. He's got all these percentages, but he's telling his mother, There's nothing to worry about, nobody is coming after you, you're okay?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: All right. So this investigation was pretty lengthy; fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's fair to say.
MS. FULFORD: All right. And you were involved in the investigation, I guess would be the Monday after the homicide through Mrs. Adelson's arrest, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Going through today, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. We want to talk about the period from when Danny Markel was killed -- I shouldn't say "we want to talk about." My questions are going to relate to from the date that Danny Markel was killed through the date of her arrest.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MS. FULFORD: And I know you've got records, some people's records, phone records, et cetera, that were from prior to Danny being killed, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: E-mails, et cetera?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And in my questioning, we'll address those as well, okay?
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. I'm going to ask you a question. You have testified about getting a wiretap, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I didn't personally get the wiretap, but I testified about the wiretap, correct.
MS. FULFORD: One was obtained in this case?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And when I say “in this case,” I'm not referring to Donna Adelson. I'm referring to -- there's a lot of coconspirators that are alleged, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And wiretaps were approved by the Court for two people in the case, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: So the only wiretaps you got from the date of Danny Markel's homicide through Mrs. Adelson being arrested were on Charlie Adelson, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And Katherine Magbanua, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: The only ones we got on this case were, that's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And "this case," I mean who I just included. I mean, you testified Luis Rivera was arrested, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And he entered a plea deal?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And Sigfredo Garcia, the one who did the killing, he was arrested?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And convicted. And we'll go back to that in a minute. Then you got who? Charlie Adelson and Katherine Magbanua, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And then you have Mrs. Adelson who's been charged, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: So of those five people, the only wiretaps you ever got were on Charlie Adelson and Katherine Magbanua, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct. There was a previous wiretap on Luis Rivera.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. All right. When you say "previous," what is that time period?
PATRICK SANFORD: That was in 2014 through -- and I think went into 2015.
MS. FULFORD: So it was one wiretap that you got that was extended?
PATRICK SANFORD: It was not our wiretap. It was a different agency's wiretap that were investigating him for the crime that he was incarcerated for.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Not for this case?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not for this case, correct. But there were available recordings that we reviewed of his wiretap that assisted us with this investigation.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Thank you. And to get a wiretap, there's a process you have to go through, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: An affidavit or -- basically showing probable cause has to be submitted to the Court, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: A petition for a wiretap has to be submitted to the Court?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. FULFORD: And the Court reviews it. And if the Court approves it, based on the probable cause and the petition, here in this case, it was granted twice, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And in -- what has to be shown in this affidavit is probable cause, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And what is your working knowledge of what "probable cause" means?
PATRICK SANFORD: My working knowledge?
MS. FULFORD: Yes, sir.
PATRICK SANFORD: It's evidence that is built upon that is -- shows a pattern of what can be beyond a reasonable doubt -- not really -- not beyond a reasonable doubt, but brings upon reasonable suspicion upon something.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Great. So I'm glad you clarified that. A probable cause affidavit is basically you have evidence that a crime has been committed, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And the particular person who's the suspect in that affidavit is probably the person who committed the crime. Is that kind of a fair way to say it?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's one way to say it, yes.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. All right. Not beyond reasonable doubt?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, not beyond reasonable doubt.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And when someone -- when you get an arrest warrant, it's the same thing. It's just probable cause, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Not beyond reasonable doubt?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Now, I don't think you were asked about it specifically, but as the lead investigator on the case, you're familiar with the circumstances of Mr. Markel being killed, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: I mean, he was followed by Sigfredo Garcia and Luis Rivera the day of his murder?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: He followed -- they followed him from his house to the preschool that the children went to, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: They watched him walk the children into the school, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And then when he left the school and went to the gym, they followed him there, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And after he was done with the gym, he -- they followed him to his home?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And during the course of this morning, besides those actions, what's happening is there's communication between Dan Markel and wendi Adelson, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And they're exes at this time. The divorce is final, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And I think the communication that was spoken of here was Danny Markel, he leaves a voicemail for Wendi that morning, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so. That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: I can't recall if you were the witness where that was played or not. Were you?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Have you listened to it?
PATRICK SANFORD: It's been a long time ago.
MS. FULFORD: would you -- would you agree with me that it was a pretty pleasant message?
PATRICK SANFORD: I can't disagree with that.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Mr. Markel was being friendly about, you know, he and wendi potentially getting together to discuss one of the children's school that they might be going to, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. FULFORD: He even suggests, I think, that they could meet at the school and take a walk and talk about it, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't recall that part, but it was pleasant.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. You are familiar with the text messages that took place between them after that phone call, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I was. It's been years since I've looked at them.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. You're not going to be able to answer any of my questions about those, then?
PATRICK SANFORD: I might not be able to. You can try.
MS. FULFORD: we've got other witnesses. we'll go on if you don't know them, okay?
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MS. FULFORD: Based on all of the evidence in the case, Mr. Markel didn't know what was happening, did he?
PATRICK SANFORD: He didn't know what was going to happen to him?
MS. FULFORD: Right.
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am, I don't believe he did.
MS. FULFORD: He didn't know he was being followed. You don't have any evidence that he was aware of that?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am, we do not believe that.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And you have surveillance footage at the -- at the daycare, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not at the daycare. At the gym and some cross-traffic cameras. I don't remember the daycare.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. I might -- I might have misspoken on that. I apologize.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MS. FULFORD: But Mr. Markel, being unaware of what was going to happen to him that morning, he was just kind of going about life as usual; is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am, he was.
MS. FULFORD: when he took his children to the preschool and hugged and kissed them and sent them on in the room, he didn't know that was the last time he was going to see them?
PATRICK SANFORD: He did not.
MS. FULFORD: And those children certainly didn't know that was the last time they were ever in their lives going to see their father?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, they didn't.
MS. FULFORD: And we've gone through they go to the gym, they follow -- Sigfredo Garcia and -- sometimes I mess up their names -- Luis Rivera follow him in their car back to his home, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And the evidence is that Sigfredo Garcia -- they pull up behind Mr. Markel in his driveway, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And the car is still running. Mr. Markel is still inside of it. And from the evidence you're aware of, he was talking on the phone to someone?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And he, at least, is alerted from the evidence that you obtained, that somebody is in his driveway and he doesn't know who it is, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And from the evidence that you have reviewed, what happens is Sigfredo Garcia exits the car and he goes up and, through the glass, shoots Danny Markel twice, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Once in the cheek area and one time almost right between the eyes?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: So the investigation really begins in the case when the neighbor -- I think his name is Mr. Geiger -- he calls 911, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And he's already testified to what transpired that made him make that call to 911. But as soon as 911 is called, the investigation starts; is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'd agree with that.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Law enforcement was on the scene. There were a bunch of cars, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And crime scene tape was put up so that the crime scene would be secure and evidence wouldn't be tampered with or trampled over, whatever; is that right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: Cars were not allowed to go up towards the house, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's my understanding.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. But people who drove up to the crime scene tape and could turn around, in your investigation, they would be able to see these cars sitting out there in front of Mr. Markel's house, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: It depends on which side of the street you're on, I believe. But I was not at the scene, so I can't really testify to that.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Have you reviewed the pictures?
PATRICK SANFORD: I have seen pictures.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Now, I don't recall what time it is, but sometime in the afternoon, I think it was TPD located wendi Adelson having lunch with some friends, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That was TPD. Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And they took her back to TPD and they spoke to her, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: They did.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. You're aware of that interview?
PATRICK SANFORD: I am.
MS. FULFORD: Have you observed it?
PATRICK SANFORD: I have.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And during the course of that interview -- which is several hours long, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so. It's been a while.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. There are times when she's sitting in the room with a victim advocate alone, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Sometimes -- I don't remember. was he Detective/Investigator Isom?
PATRICK SANFORD: Investigator Isom.
MS. FULFORD: Investigator Isom comes in and speaks to her some, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Sherrie Bennett comes in and talks to her about some things, from TPD, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't believe so.
MS. FULFORD: That's okay. we'll have another witness.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MS. FULFORD: But you agree people are coming and going out of the room?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And wendi Adelson -- there are many Adelsons so I'l] stop saying "Mrs." 1I'11 give their first names, okay?
wendi Adelson is recorded from the time she gets into that room until they are done speaking to her and she's going to be permitted to leave, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so, yes.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And during the course of her being interviewed, she says many things, but she certainly says that Mr. Markel's parents are going to think that she did it, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe that's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And then she starts answering questions about who it is that possibly could have done this to Mr. Markel, and she gives lots of choices. Maybe it's an angry student, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right.
MS. FULFORD: Maybe it's someone that got upset with him, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right.
MS. FULFORD: And when she talks about her family, she said that her brother had previously joked that he was going to get a hitman, but instead, it was cheaper to get her a TV, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And when asked about who was angry, she said that her parents disliked him more than anyone. Those were her statements, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so, yes.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And from that -- from that date that she's interviewed there and she gives statements, fair to say that her family become suspects?
PATRICK SANFORD: It depends on whose definition of "suspect" you have, but they are persons of interest.
MS. FULFORD: Persons of interest. Okay. From that time period?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. How many suspects did you have from the time Mr. Markel was killed through Donna Adelson being arrested?
PATRICK SANFORD: Suspects?
MS. FULFORD: Yes, sir.
PATRICK SANFORD: I would call them persons of interest --
MS. FULFORD: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. We'll use your word.
PATRICK SANFORD: we had a lot of persons of interest throughout the case. I couldn't tell you a number but there was numerous.
MS. FULFORD: You followed up on numerous persons of interest?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: How long were there numerous persons of interest before you were focused in on the Adelson family?
PATRICK SANFORD: About a year.
MS. FULFORD: A year?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: So you didn't consider, in the first year, the Adelson family as persons of interest?
PATRICK SANFORD: I considered them. You asked me if I was focused, and I focused about a year in.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. On them?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. There was an investigation going on regarding the Adelsons from the time that wendi started saying these comments, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: They were part of the investigation.
MS. FULFORD: I mean, bank records were obtained very early on, on the Adelson family, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And those were updated throughout the entire investigation, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: There's different times during the investigation they were updated. After they became main suspects and we identified Luis Rivera, we definitely did then.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And starting on July 21, 2014 up through the day that Donna Adelson was arrested, you stayed actively involved in the investigation, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And, in fact, you were even there when she was arrested, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: I was there on every single arrest, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: You're invested in the case because you were the lead investigator?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Have you ever made a mistake in your work?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MS. FULFORD: Have you ever initially assumed that one person might be a suspect or a person of interest, and later it turned out that they were not the one that committed the crime?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not a suspect, no, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: No? Not a person of interest?
PATRICK SANFORD: Maybe a person of interest, yes. Not a suspect.
MS. FULFORD: You've been -- you've been right from the time you thought that they were a person of interest through them being arrested? Not made a mistake?
PATRICK SANFORD: AS a suspect? A suspect, I deem as somebody we have probable cause on.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. All right. So not just TPD and not just you with the FBI, there were several agencies who were involved in this investigation; is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not for the investigation. I would disagree with that.
MS. FULFORD: The state attorney's office investigator was not involved in the investigation of this case?
PATRICK SANFORD: Later on, he was, but there's not several agencies. There was just a few that assisted, yes.
MS. FULFORD: well, the Miami-Dade Police Department got involved, did they not?
PATRICK SANFORD: They assisted, correct.
MS. FULFORD: And they assisted with the search warrant in Mrs. Adelson, Donna Adelson's home, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: They were there when she was arrested; is that right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe that was the Miami-Dade -- I believe that was Miami-Dade. There's different agencies down there, so different agencies would assist when we needed help.
MS. FULFORD: So some agency down there was there for her arrest?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right. what I'm saying is there's not a bunch of agencies who were invested in the case throughout the entire investigation.
MS. FULFORD: Sure.
PATRICK SANFORD: There were several that assisted, yes.
MS. FULFORD: There are main investigative agencies, yourself and TPD?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: But there were others who were involved as well?
PATRICK SANFORD: That were involved that assisted us, yes.
MS. FULFORD: Right. Even the Florida Department of Law Enforcement was involved in assisting, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And so fair to say you had resources that were beyond just TPD, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And the evidence that's been collected in this case has been for years, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: I mean, we're, like -- at this point, unfortunately, Mr. Markel has been gone for -- is my math right -- 11 years?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And the different kinds of evidence that was obtained in this case include a lot of e-mails?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'd agree with that.
MS. FULFORD: One witness testified that there were hundreds of thousands of e-mails that were obtained in this case?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know what another witness testified to. That's --
MS. FULFORD: No. I'm just -- I'm asking your knowledge. You're aware that there were hundreds of thousands?
PATRICK SANFORD: I do know that, yes.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And in addition to having these e-mails, you also recovered a lot of text messages, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Now, hundreds of thousands of e-mails, I can tell you from my experience in this case, that's not easy to go through, is it?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: So were a lot of people involved in reviewing the e-mails for the investigation?
PATRICK SANFORD: TPD had people that reviewed the e-mails.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And I'm sure you're not familiar with all hundreds of thousands of them; is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's very fair to say.
MS. FULFORD: The ones that have been presented here with the State, and you going over with them preparing for court, some of them have been introduced into evidence, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And also, in addition to that, there are -- even though you don't have recorded calls until the bump, I guess?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's fair to say. I could be mistaken, but I think that's probably the first recorded calls.
MS. FULFORD: when I say “recorded calls," I mean the wire calls. They -- that's what you have that you've testified to here in court?
PATRICK SANFORD: we had some wire calls prior to the bump, like the first -- like a week -- about a week before the bump.
MS. FULFORD: Mr. Rivera, are you referring to?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am. We started the wire before the bump.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Give me those dates.
PATRICK SANFORD: I can refresh my notes --
MS. FULFORD: Please do.
PATRICK SANFORD: -- look at my notes to refresh my memory?
MS. FULFORD: Yeah, please do.
PATRICK SANFORD: It looks like 4/8/16 is when we started the wire on Mr. Adelson, Mr. Charlie Adelson, and Katherine Magbanua.
MS. FULFORD: And that went all the way through, is it June 7?
PATRICK SANFORD: I have to refer to my notes again.
MS. FULFORD: Please do.
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't have that on my timeline, but that sounds about right. June 7 is when -- well, actually, I do have -- so we did actually get another couple of wires after Sigfredo was arrested. I'm sorry, after I interviewed Mr. Garcia, he went and bought two burner phones, and we went up on those phones, also.
MS. FULFORD: Okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: As he was -- as he -- I interviewed him, released him. He went and bought two burner phones. We went up on those phones, also. And then we ended up arresting him, and then shortly after that, we went down on all the wires, on the two wires and his two burner phones.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. With respect to Charlie Adelson and Katherine Magbanua, those ended around June 7, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am, I believe that's correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. In addition to those recorded calls that you have, you also, in this investigation, have what's called call detail records from even before Mr. Markel was killed, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, call detail records showing the calls back and forth, date and times, just -- yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Not just back and forth between people here, but other people, too?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right. All their phone -- it's their phone records. It's no content, is what it is. It's the call detail records, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: All right. So you got those for an extended period of time, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: we did.
MS. FULFORD: Many years?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And you talked about TPD reviewing the e-mails, the hundreds of thousands of e-mails. How about the recorded calls? was someone listening in on those?
PATRICK SANFORD: which recorded calls?
MS. FULFORD: For the bump.
PATRICK SANFORD: So you're talking about the wire calls?
MS. FULFORD: Yes.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes. we had -- people had to live monitor those calls. we can't just record them without somebody sitting there and listening to them. They have to minimize as they go.
MS. FULFORD: Let's talk about minimizing. Minimizing is when there's a point in a call where something is being discussed that's not relevant to your investigation; is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's fair.
MS. FULFORD: And so the minimization takes place in that, click, we're not -- we're not -- we're not recording that part, we're not listening to the part? How does that work?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yeah. They hit a button and it stops recording and stops listening.
MS. FULFORD: Okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: And then they are -- they give a certain amount of time, they go back in and start listening again to see if there's anything relevant to the conversation.
MS. FULFORD: All right. And in some of these calls that have been admitted, they could be extended calls, many minutes, but there's only a very short period of time that's relevant to this case; is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's that officer who's actually monitoring at that time, that's their determination. So they've been instructed on how to do the minimization, and they listen to the best of their knowledge, and they make those determinations of whether they think it's relevant or not.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. But you would agree that some of these calls -- well, let's just give an example. There's a call on April 15, 2016, if you look at your summary, 8:32 p.m. And it says it's 50 minutes and 9 seconds. Do you see that?
PATRICK SANFORD: You said April 15? Do you know -- you got the call number?
MS. FULFORD: 2016 -- oh, I'm sorry. It's 989.
PATRICK SANFORD: Oh, perfect. Yes, ma'am, I see it. Fifty minutes long, yes, ma‘am.
MS. FULFORD: For 50 minutes, they're talking but they're not talking about this case for 50 minutes; fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: Fair to say they're not talking about this case in regards to the actual -- I would say it's relevant to the case.
MS. FULFORD: It's relevant to the case?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: So if they're talking about Charlie wanting to buy a go-kart and become a professional go-kart driver, that's relevant to the case?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe some of that was minimized.
MS. FULFORD: Right. So my point is, if it's a 50-minute call, that doesn't mean the 50 minutes are about this case, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No. All 50 minutes of it? No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Okay. So we may have heard two minutes in some of these calls that say they're lengthy?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: I mean, some of the calls we listened to completely. You know, 10-minute calls, 15-minute calls, we listened to those entirely, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Some of them, we did, yes.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. But most of them, we're looking at segments, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: So where it says the duration of a call, you're not saying that the duration is they've spoken on the phone about this case for that period of time?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am, not at all.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. I know I'm going to get this wrong because -- just because I get things wrong. I'm not going to pronounce this right. I can't remember if it's Jeffery "La-cost," "La-cast,” La-something.
PATRICK SANFORD: I say Lacasse --
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Lacasse. All right. was he a person of interest?
PATRICK SANFORD: I didn't deal with Mr. Lacasse. I never interviewed him. I had no real dealings with him so ...
MS. FULFORD: As far as your knowledge in the investigation, was he a person of interest?
PATRICK SANFORD: At some point, I'm sure he was.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Wwendi Adelson, in her interview, didn't actually offer up Jeff Lacasse as a suspect, did she?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know what you mean "offer him up as a suspect."
MS. FULFORD: well, when law enforcement's asking her who could have done this, she doesn't say -- she doesn't say, Oh, I've got this boyfriend/ex-boyfriend, Jeff Lacasse, and he probably did it. She doesn't say that, does she?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't believe so.
MS. FULFORD: In fact, she has a friend come into the interview room with her. Do you recall that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not really.
MS. FULFORD: You don't? Okay. That's okay. we'll get it and play it.
You recall that it's that friend who says Jeff Lacasse?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't.
MS. FULFORD: That's okay. we'll play it.
How many witnesses do you think you interviewed?
PATRICK SANFORD: witnesses?
MS. FULFORD: Yes, sir.
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm not sure. TI couldn't even --
MS. FULFORD: Hundreds?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, not hundreds. No.
MS. FULFORD: Less than 50?
PATRICK SANFORD: Less than 50.
MS. FULFORD: Twenty-five?
PATRICK SANFORD: Witnesses? Yeah, definitely less than 25.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And what about persons of interest? How many did you interview?
PATRICK SANFORD: Me, personally?
MS. FULFORD: Yes, sir.
PATRICK SANFORD: Just a handful.
MS. FULFORD: Handful. There was a call RR, and that's -- there's so many calls, that's not going to ring a bell to you, I'm sure. I'm not even sure if looking at your summary is going to ring a bell. But you were here when the calls were played, obviously.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And call RR is on April 29, 2016 between Katherine Magbanua and Charlie Adelson. It says the duration is 10 minutes and 20 seconds.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Do you -- do you recall that there was a call played, a recording played yesterday, where they're talking and there's some pretty inappropriate comments about her breasts. That's not how he or she referred to them. But do you remember that call?
PATRICK SANFORD: I do.
MS. FULFORD: And at that time, Katherine Magbanua is going into Charlie Adelson's garage; you recall that?
PATRICK SANFORD: I do.
MS. FULFORD: Do you remember him telling her to take off her shirt so that she would know how to get into the garage?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And you know from your investigation, the reference for that is she has a tattoo on her ribs that is 1214, and that happens to be his garage code, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's what I've been told. I haven't seen it.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Is it fair to say that the information that was obtained in these recorded calls was used in your investigation to determine if you're moving forward on a person or not? Is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: That was a piece of it.
MS. FULFORD: Okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. FULFORD: It was? Okay.
Charlie Adelson, in the Dolce Vita recording -- that was played with you, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And that's where Katie and Charlie are meeting ata restaurant, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: April 20, 2016?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am. Sounds right.
MS. FULFORD: And in addition to a recording inside the restaurant where they're talking, I guess there are some pictures, also, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Inside the restaurant?
MS. FULFORD: Outside the restaurant, they take pictures.
PATRICK SANFORD: Outside the restaurant when they were on the sidewalk, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: That's before or after they go inside?
PATRICK SANFORD: After.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So they go inside and they're there for an extended period of time; is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And there's one or more agent or officer of some sort in there with concealed recording devices trying to capture their conversation, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And you recall that in Dolce Vita, Charlie tells Katie, Trust me, I'll keep you full-time so you're going to get your checks.
He says that, doesn't he?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe he did, yes.
MS. FULFORD: And you considered that as part of your investigation?
PATRICK SANFORD: Considered that statement?
MS. FULFORD: Yes.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yeah. Sure.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Okay. So we've had the agencies that have helped in some way, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And TPD was responsible for reviewing the e-mails. who was responsible for listening to the calls?
PATRICK SANFORD: It was -- TPD was monitoring the calls. They had officers assigned to shifts --
MS. FULFORD: Okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: -- monitoring the calls live.
MS. FULFORD: Live. They did it around the clock, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am. Well, I don't remember -- I don't recall doing a night shift, a late-night shift. But we could have. I don't remember.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Many, many hours a day, they're listening in on all the phone calls of Magbanua and Charlie Adelson --
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am. Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And these people who are listening in, how are they getting the information to the investigators on the case when they hear something they think is relevant? How does that process work?
PATRICK SANFORD: There's different ways. Sometimes they would call us directly. Sometimes myself or Investigator Isom would be in there or other people on the squad would be in there, or they would -- yeah, they would relay the information through different means.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And you say "in there." You mean actually in there where they're listening to the call?
PATRICK SANFORD: In the wire room, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And were you actually listening in on the calls as well?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not -- no, ma'am. I was mostly in South Florida --
MS. FULFORD: Okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: -- during a lot of the wire. I would go in there and review calls, because we can go in there. And they would mark them pertinent, what was pertinent/non-pertinent. So we would have to go in and listen to calls that had already been made and recorded, and that's where we would have to go to listen to them.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. When you say marked permanent -- what did you say?
PATRICK SANFORD: Pertinent.
MS. FULFORD: Pertinent. I'm sorry. I misspoke. Pertinent or not pertinent, you said they're marked that way. Did you get some kind of printout or something that showed you that?
PATRICK SANFORD: There's a database, computer database, that we could go in and log in and see these calls listed, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And so yourself and Isom and maybe others had access to go in and listen, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. If there was something really urgent, is somebody letting you know that right away?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, usually. we had -- we left them instructions --
MS. FULFORD: Okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: -- to do that, yes.
MS. FULFORD: And something urgent would be, oh, my goodness, somebody is meeting up, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And so the resources that you had in South Florida at the time, including yourself, is, Some of these people are going to be meeting up, we need to go see what we can capture; is that right?
PATRICK SANFORD: There was a short period after the bump that we did that. Not throughout a long period of time, of course.
MS. FULFORD: Sure. Right. Okay. During the bump that's going on -- I'm referring to the bump as not just the day they meet on the street, but that period of time where you have the wire live down there, okay?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And during that period of time, yourself -- you were there. were there other people on standby to assist you?
PATRICK SANFORD: There were. I had some other FBI agents that are assigned to Miami division that were assisting me.
MS. FULFORD: Including the individuals who went in and did the recordings; is that fair?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And you said you were there for some of them. which ones were you there for?
PATRICK SANFORD: For some of what?
MS. FULFORD: The meetings that were recorded.
PATRICK SANFORD: I was there for the bump. I was there for the next-day meeting with Mrs. Adelson and Mr. Charlie Adelson when they met on the boardwalk. I was there -- I mean, I was in South Florida the whole time. whether I was physically at the meeting is hard to say. I was outside at Dolce Vita. I did not go in because I had already been close to Mr. Adelson and Mrs. -- Charlie Adelson and Donna Adelson. The day that they met on the boardwalk, I was pretty close to them, so I wasn't sure if they noticed me or not so I didn't go back in and get close to them again after that. So I did not go into Dolce vita. I did not go into Matsuri. I was outside, not inside the restaurants.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And when you said you had already been close to them, you mean in proximity, not that they were aware of you and what your job was?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And also in this case, there was use of, I guess, firearms experts. Was that at FDLE?
PATRICK SANFORD: That would have been FDLE.
MS. FULFORD: And the purpose of that in the investigation was to determine if both of the projectiles came from the same weapon, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't believe we had that examination done.
MS. FULFORD: That's okay. If you don't recall it, I'll --
PATRICK SANFORD: Because we didn't --
MS. FULFORD: -- from somebody else, yes, sir.
PATRICK SANFORD: we didn't recover the weapon so we did not have a weapon --
MS. FULFORD: You didn't have the weapon, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right, to compare.
MS. FULFORD: But you can compare two projectiles from the markings on them to see if they came from the same --
PATRICK SANFORD: You could, correct.
MS. FULFORD: All right. And you said you had surveillance videos from the gym?
PATRICK SANFORD: From Premier Gym? Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Where else did you have surveillance video footage?
PATRICK SANFORD: Of which point?
MS. FULFORD: Any point in this investigation.
PATRICK SANFORD: The whole investigation?
MS. FULFORD: Yes, sir.
PATRICK SANFORD: Oh, wow. I know we had some traffic cameras from the time of his drive.
MS. FULFORD: You're talking about when --
PATRICK SANFORD: Mr. Markel was driving the kids to the daycare --
MS. FULFORD: Right.
PATRICK SANFORD: -- and when he was driving to the gym, we had bus surveillance video.
MS. FULFORD: Okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: If you're referring to surveillance video, we had some surveillance video of inside Dolce vita, along with the recording. we had some recordings of when they came out of Dolce Vita. That's all I can recall right now. I'm sure there's probably more.
MS. FULFORD: Probably more?
PATRICK SANFORD: Possibly.
MS. FULFORD: Okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: Oh, surveillance video from the bank when I located Mr. Rivera and Mr. Garcia going to the bank. Immediately following the homicide, on the way back from Tallahassee, they stopped at a bank and an ATM.
MS. FULFORD: Right.
PATRICK SANFORD: Got surveillance video from that ATM.
MS. FULFORD: Right. Let me ask you this: The coconspirators is how I refer to them. The coconspirators that have been tried and convicted, the first question is, were they followed prior to their arrests?
PATRICK SANFORD: The ones -- which ones specifically?
MS. FULFORD: Any of the ones that have been tried and convicted.
PATRICK SANFORD: Followed prior to their arrest?
MS. FULFORD: Yes.
PATRICK SANFORD: Like, the day of their arrest or anytime?
MS. FULFORD: Anytime before that.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes. Sigfredo Garcia and Katherine Magbanua, I had electronic video surveillance on their residence.
MS. FULFORD: That means somebody's there watching their residence?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: well, how do you get that then?
PATRICK SANFORD: we use cameras.
MS. FULFORD: Cameras?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: All right. well, I don't want you to --
PATRICK SANFORD: And we also did some surveillance on Katherine Magbanua when she went to go meet Charlie Adelson to pick up checks before the bump. we did surveillance on her then.
MS. FULFORD: How did you know she was going to pick up checks?
PATRICK SANFORD: we were already up on the wire that week prior. And that's the photo that was shown to me earlier in the trial of her getting out of the black car and getting into Charlie's car.
MS. FULFORD: That was for picking up checks?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: The checks she picked up came from Charlie Adelson?
PATRICK SANFORD: well, he handed -- he gave her the check that day, correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Pretty incredible that you were able to determine the vehicle and find it throughout Tallahassee on bus cameras. Is that what you used -- said you used?
PATRICK SANFORD: That wasn't me particularly. That was TPD. TPD did a great job. They did a great job of going back with the timeline of the neighbor and everything. And once they saw the video at Premiere and were able to see the vehicle there, they knew the timeframes and they went back and got all the video. They did an outstanding job on that.
MS. FULFORD: Yeah. The people that were conducting surveillance, if you will, on the coconspirators who've been charged, were they with the FBI, your folks, or were they with a different agency?
PATRICK SANFORD: The one that I just spoke about with Charlie and Katie, they were FBI personnel doing that surveillance. The video surveillance, I did with -- through the FBI. Yeah, I believe all the ones in South Florida were probably all FBI.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. In addition to the people who've been convicted of this offense, was my client, Donna Adelson -- did someone watch her comings and goings at any point?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. FULFORD: And when was that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Leading up to the bump, I had FBI personnel doing surveillance to get a pattern of life so we could find out where she was going so we could come up with an idea of where to conduct the bump at.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And that was where she would be outside walking; is that fair?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct. when she went to go pick up Mr. Markel's children from preschool, we were able to determine what time she left out of there, and it was a consistent time every day that she went to go pick the children up from the school. So we determined that was a good time to set up the operation, because we had a known time when that was going to occur.
MS. FULFORD: Right. And was she followed in her vehicle places that she traveled to?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't recall exactly if she was followed in her vehicle. It's possible, though, during that time period, trying to get a pattern of life.
MS. FULFORD: In determining this pattern of life where she walks her grandchildren to the school before school starts and then walks back to pick them up, were you present for observing that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not on those days. On the day of the bump, I was.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. But you got that information from whoever in the FBI was doing the surveillance, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And in addition to the live surveillance, the recordings that you've had, folks have been retained to do an enhancement of some of those things, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: So if the recording doesn't sound real clear from what you obtained in your equipment when you went in, an enhancement means that you basically block out some of the outside noise, if you will, and then you can hear the voice of the person speaking that you want to hear, you can hear them more clearly; is that correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: It's a clarification, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And in addition to all of the things we've talked about, cell phones were recovered in this case by law enforcement, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And some computers as well, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And those were searched, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: As far as I know, yes.
MS. FULFORD: You didn't participate in that part?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: But you're aware in the investigation, that material that has been used in prosecuting these individuals came from those phones and computers, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Now, you never got a wiretap on Donna Adelson's phone, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And one year into it, you decided that -- did she move from a person of interest to a suspect? I don't remember how you worded it.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am. Once I identified Sigfredo Garcia as being in Tallahassee the day of the murder at the gym, and identified Luis Rivera, we were able to go back and get phone records, and that's when I was able to link back to the Adelson family.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And you've testified on direct when each person was arrested. I guess it would have been Garcia first, and then -- Rivera was already incarcerated, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct. we still visited him and he was -- he was -- I can't remember if it was a complaint or an indictment, but he was still indicted under this case.
MS. FULFORD: He was indicted. Okay. But at the time he was indicted, he was serving a prison sentence in federal prison; is that right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am. He was in Coleman FCI at the time.
MS. FULFORD: And his sentence for his federal case was what?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe it was 12 years, if I'm not mistaken. It's been a while.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And in this case, he assisted law enforcement. we've heard testimony of that. You're aware of that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Eventually, he did, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And his assistance was taking you places, explaining things; is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am. He -- we drove him around Tallahassee and let him explain things, and then we drove him down to South Florida looking for the weapon.
MS. FULFORD: Down to South Florida looking for the weapon. That's where he thought the weapon was?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am. That's where he told us that they ditched the weapon was on the way to South Florida. It was on -- it was along the road on the way to South Florida when they threw the weapon in a river.
MS. FULFORD: And whereabouts -- do you recall whereabouts was that between Tallahassee and where they went to when the homicide was over in South Florida?
PATRICK SANFORD: where at, where he said he dumped the weapon?
MS. FULFORD: Yes. Where did --
PATRICK SANFORD: It was in Tampa, outside of Tampa. we finally identified a bridge that he thought looked like the bridge that he -- that him and Sigfredo -- Sigfredo actually threw the gun away, but he was driving.
MS. FULFORD: But you didn't locate it?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am. we did extensive searches for the weapon.
MS. FULFORD: He told you what kind of gun was used, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And what was that gun? what type?
PATRICK SANFORD: It was a .38. I don't remember if it was Smith & wesson, but -- it's been a while.
MS. FULFORD: It was a resolver, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: It was a revolver, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: You recall that in -- around June of 2016, so after this bump period and the ending of the wiretap, that probable cause in this case, it was leaked out, wasn't it?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's what I was told.
MS. FULFORD: And TPD actually held a press conference, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: They did hold a press conference at some point, yes.
MS. FULFORD: And the Adelson family, according to what TPD said in the probable cause affidavit, the Adelson family were announced as being considered as suspects, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't believe they talked about that at the press conference at all. I think they just -- at the press conference, from what I remember, is him just announcing Sigfredo Garcia's arrest. That's what I -- that's what I recall, but it's been nine years ago.
MS. FULFORD: Sure. And it's mentioned in the probable cause, too, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: It was mentioned in the probable cause, yes, ma'am. That's not the press conference, though.
MS. FULFORD: Yeah. I had -- I made a mistake. I askeda compound question. I included them both. And, obviously, the first thing I said was the press conference, and that's what you picked up on. So that's my fault.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay. No problem.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Now, from the time that Mr. Markel was murdered to the time that Donna Adelson was arrested, fair to say she lived a pretty routine life, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know what her routine life is, but I would -- I couldn't disagree with that.
MS. FULFORD: well, during your investigation, you learned that she worked at the Adelson Institute, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: You learned that Harvey Adelson, her husband of, now, 54 years, did general dentistry there, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: You learned that Charlie Adelson was a periodontist and worked some out of the Adelson Institute, but he also did -- I guess it's dental surgery. I'm not real familiar with it. But basically, he did dental surgery for many different doctors, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe it was periodontal work. But, yes, he traveled around and did -- yeah.
MS. FULFORD: I'm sorry if I misspoke. TI thought surgery was the periodontist, but --
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know either.
MS. FULFORD: whatever. He was a specialist, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And he did that work for several different dentists, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: He did. He traveled around in different offices and worked out of other people's offices is what he did.
MS. FULFORD: And a lot of the calls that he made to his mother that you've listened to, he's talking to her between these appointments, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: He is. During appointments sometimes, too, it sounds like.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Yeah, it did, didn't it? Okay.
During this time period, from your investigation, you're aware that after Mr. Markel was murdered until the time that Mrs. Adelson was arrested, she and her husband left the United States several times to travel, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: They did.
MS. FULFORD: And they returned each time, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: They did.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Back in 2019 is when the iMessage "Outside your house" was obtained during the course of this investigation, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know the date.
MS. FULFORD: Somebody else does. But -- well, I'll have to ask somebody else that.
Now, on these calls that you're listening to, you're hearing what the parties are saying to each other, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And you're not hearing any of the conversations, unless you recorded them, of what they speak about before that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm sorry. Can you reask that --
MS. FULFORD: Yeah, sure. I mean, it's clear in these recorded phone calls that these folks are talking in person sometimes?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: They're talking about lots of issues that are recorded, but they speak outside of these recorded calls that you have?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: So you're not privy to that if you haven't recorded it?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's fair.
MS. FULFORD: So when they're having these conversations, there are things in their mind that you're not aware of?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's possible, yes.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Now, all of these calls that have been played here today, they were considered as one of the pieces of your investigation, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: One of the pieces, correct.
MS. FULFORD: So on call S when Charlie says to his mother, You didn't do anything to anybody, you don't know anything, you considered that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am, we considered it.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And on these calls where Charlie Adelson is talking to his mother, you would agree that at least the majority of the conversation comes from Charlie, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I would agree with that, yes.
MS. FULFORD: Sometimes the overwhelming majority of the conversation; is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sometimes, yes.
MS. FULFORD: And there are times that Mrs. Adelson is talking to Charlie on the phone and she says, we'll meet up and talk about it, we -- I'm not going to talk about it on the phone with you, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, she does.
MS. FULFORD: And you don't know where she got the idea from of why it is she's not going to talk about it on the phone, do you?
PATRICK SANFORD: Do I know?
MS. FULFORD: From your investigation, have you gotten evidence to show why it is she's saying those things?
PATRICK SANFORD: Through my investigation --
MS. FULFORD: Do you have evidence?
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay. Do I have evidence? No.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Now, Katherine Magbanua -- well, Sigfredo went to trial and he was convicted, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And Luis Rivera, after he was indicted -- or before he was indicted, he cooperated with law enforcement, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's incorrect.
MS. FULFORD: After he was indicted?
PATRICK SANFORD: It was well after he was indicted.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Sorry. I got the timeline wrong.
So well after he's indicted on the charges, he decides he's going to cooperate, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes. It was a few months later.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And he had a 12-year sentence with the federal -- in federal prison, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: He already had that, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Right. Based on federal charges, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And he got a sentence for his role in this case for a period of 19 years, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: But that was to be served concurrently, meaning at the same time, with the sentence that he had on his federal case, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so.
MS. FULFORD: So the additional time that he got for this homicide is seven years, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That sounds correct.
MS. FULFORD: And Mr. Garcia is the first one to be tried and convicted, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: He's the first one that was convicted.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And --
PATRICK SANFORD: He was tried together.
MS. FULFORD: Right. But that first trial of him, he's convicted, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And he's sentenced to life in prison?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And then Katherine Magbanua has a trial, and she's convicted, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And she's sentenced to life in prison, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And Charlie Adelson is -- so we've got the first three, life in prison except for Luis Rivera who gets, basically, an additional seven years, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Then you get to Charlie Adelson and he's arrested, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And he has a trial, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And his defense, if you will -- I mean, you were there for that trial, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I was there for my part of the trial. I did not see -- I was not allowed to be in the courtroom during the rest of the testimony.
MS. FULFORD: Was there at any point during the course of Mr. Charlie Adelson going to trial, getting convicted and thereafter, that you learned that his defense was that he was being extorted?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I did.
MS. FULFORD: You heard that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: But he got convicted, didn't he?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And he was sentenced to life in prison?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So then comes Katherine Magbanua after she's been convicted -- and she's in prison for life, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: The testimony is that she gave a proffer to law enforcement, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: She actually gave two proffers first, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And when she gave those proffers, she gave information about what she says happened, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And she's hoping -- she's giving this cooperation because she's not promised anything but hoping, as she's testified, that some day she'll see her kids, so she won't actually have to serve a life sentence. That's fair to say, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know that for a fact, but I would assume that's correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And when she gives these two proffers, it's before she testifies against Charlie Adelson, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And the first proffer that she gives is a little bit different than the story she told in two different trials so far, Sigfredo Garcia's and then herself, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I would agree with that.
MS. FULFORD: She changes some information?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know if she changes information. She has more information as time goes on, because she was -- I believe she was minimizing the first two proffers, which is very, very common for defendants to do. They minimize their role in actual crimes.
MS. FULFORD: Right. So when she testifies in Sigfredo Garcia's trial and then in her trial, basically --
PATRICK SANFORD: Oh, I'm sorry.
MS. FULFORD: That's okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: I misunderstood what you said about --
MS. FULFORD: No. I'm sorry. I can't speak over you -- and I talk way too fast -- because the court reporter can only get one of us, so I apologize for that. It's not intentional.
PATRICK SANFORD: I thought you said the proffer.
MS. FULFORD: I did.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MS. FULFORD: I did.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MS. FULFORD: So I'm changing now.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MS. FULFORD: So she -- basically, when she testifies in those first two trials, she didn't just minimize. She didn't have involvement?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right. She lied in the first two trials.
MS. FULFORD: She lied, straight up?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And then she gives this first proffer and she's not being completely honest there either, is she?
PATRICK SANFORD: She's not being fully forthcoming, is the way I describe it.
MS. FULFORD: All right. And -- and you're in that interview?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And who else is in there with her?
PATRICK SANFORD: Jason Newlin, investigator with the state attorney's office, and Sherrie Bennett with the Tallahassee Police Department.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. All right. And when you-all are in there interviewing her the first time, she's not being forthcoming and you're asking her questions, aren't you?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And you know she's not being forthcoming because of other things you obtained in the investigation and the convictions that you've had, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I feel like she's holding back her involvement, correct.
MS. FULFORD: And at some point in that first proffer, you got so frustrated, you just got up and walked out, didn't you?
PATRICK SANFORD: I -- we -- I left the room. I didn't walk out. we left the room to let her think about it. It's a strategic process to have them think about it and reconsider them not being totally honest with us. So it wasn't that I was walking out and done with her.
MS. FULFORD: No, you weren't done, because she -- you came back and then she gave another proffer?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Right. And from the first proffer that she gave to the second proffer that she gave, she tells more, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: She does.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And then she gets to Charlie Adelson's trial, and by the time she gets there, she's got more information even she testifies to, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I would agree with that.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So she wasn't honest in her first testimony at her trial, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: In her trial, correct.
MS. FULFORD: well, she testified twice. There were two trials she testified in first.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct. Her trials, she was -- yes, she lied in her first two trials. Absolutely.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And she wasn't completely forthcoming in her first proffer?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And she wasn't completely forthcoming in her second proffer?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And she comes into the third trial with -- or -- yeah, the third trial is Charlie Adelson. And she provides additional information, which means she wasn't forthcoming before, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And then she's been here in trial. Are you aware that she's testified here?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm aware she was here, but I know nothing about it.
MS. FULFORD: Right. Because you're under a rule that you can't talk about the case, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: Are you real familiar with all of the testimony and proffers that she's given in this case?
MS. FULFORD: You're not?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not real familiar.
MS. FULFORD: Yeah.
PATRICK SANFORD: I can't say I'm real familiar. It depends on what it is, I guess.
MS. FULFORD: Are you real familiar with what she testified to in Charlie's trial?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know if I can say I'm real familiar with it.
MS. FULFORD: That's okay. we'll just -- we'll just -- we'll get that information and get it to the jury.
May I have just one moment? I left something at my table.
JUDGE EVERETT: Go ahead.
(A pause in the proceedings.)
BY MS. FULFORD:
MS. FULFORD: All right. There was some testimony about Mrs. Adelson making arrangements to take a trip to Vietnam. You've testified about that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And you're familiar at least with what happened during that course of the investigation, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. You were -- you were intimately involved in her time period where she speaks to Charlie on the phone -- and we call it the dropped call that's been played here today where she can't -- she can tell Charlie's not on the line anymore, but for some reason, it continues to record, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right. I was only familiar with that, that Friday. It's, like, five days after the call was made is when I was made aware of that call.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And you were made aware of it on that Friday?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: You had an opportunity to listen to the call?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And you discussed it with the investigator at the state attorney's office?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Anybody else in the investigation that you spoke to that about that you can recall?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not that I recall.
MS. FULFORD: That's on Friday, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So you have the information from that call on Friday. And at what point do you learn that she is getting a ticket?
PATRICK SANFORD: Monday morning.
MS. FULFORD: Monday morning, the date of the flight?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Is that right?
where were you at?
PATRICK SANFORD: when I found out that she was flying?
MS. FULFORD: Yes, sir.
PATRICK SANFORD: I was at home.
MS. FULFORD: At home here in Tallahassee?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. All right. I'm not going to ask you where that is.
PATRICK SANFORD: Thank you.
MS. FULFORD: So you're at home in Tallahassee. And how did you find out about she got a flight?
PATRICK SANFORD: I got a call from a contact that I had reached out to. He checked again Monday -- he's the same one that checked -- to see if there was anything on record of flights being purchased. And he called me Monday morning, said he checked again and saw that there was a flight going to Vietnam.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So this was a contact that you had that was looking to see if she was booking flights; is that right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am, it's not that. It's a -- it'sa government agency that shows people traveling overseas. They were able to check a database to see if there had been anything that was traveling overseas.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So they were checking to see if she had arranged a flight to go overseas?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And you learned about the call on Friday. when did this start that they were checking to see if she had booked flights to go overseas?
PATRICK SANFORD: Friday.
MS. FULFORD: And you were concerned about her getting a flight to go overseas based on what was learned in the conversation that was recorded that she was not aware about, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So you start looking and you find out -- or you don't look. I'm sorry. Your contact notifies you Monday morning that she's booked a flight, she's going out of town?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: At that point, you knew it was Vietnam?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And you knew that there's not a treaty, I guess -- there's not -- there's not a -- you Know, extradition happens in different ways, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: So some countries, like Vietnam, say that they don't automatically extradite, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct. It's much more difficult.
MS. FULFORD: Right. But they do extradite, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: In certain cases, they do, yes.
MS. FULFORD: Right. It's kind of a case-by-case thing.
PATRICK SANFORD: It is.
MS. FULFORD: And one of the things that they happen to extradite for is murder, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know that.
MS. FULFORD: You don't know that? You didn't investigate that?
PATRICK SANFORD: I didn't investigate that, no.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So she's booked this flight and she's going to Vietnam. when did you find out that it was a one-way ticket?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't recall. It was -- it could have been that morning. It could have been later in the day. I'm not sure.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Before the date that you listened to this call, there was never a warrant obtained to arrest Donna Adelson, was there?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And all you know about leaving town comes from the phone call and your source who tells you that they booked a flight, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: You don't have any idea, besides that phone call, what the conversations are that are going on about this trip to Vietnam, do you?
PATRICK SANFORD: Outside of that at that point, no, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Any plans that they have actually made for a return without a return ticket at that point, you don't know about?
PATRICK SANFORD: No. I could not find anything. No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: You don't know what they were planning to do?
MS. FULFORD: But you did learn at some point in this investigation before we sit here today that they actually had the plan to return, because one of their grandsons, one of Mr. Markel's children, had a scheduled Bar Mitzvah and they were coming back for that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I had heard that. TI don't know.
MS. FULFORD: You heard it? Okay. And you have suspicion, I guess, that they weren't going to return because this one-way ticket was purchased, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Are you asking my opinion?
MS. FULFORD: I'm asking if you believed at the time that you decided to assist in getting a warrant for her to be arrested, did you, as a professional in this investigation, come to a conclusion that we needed to get a warrant because she has a one-way ticket?
PATRICK SANFORD: It's not my decision to get a warrant. I was not involved in the process of getting a warrant.
MS. FULFORD: You were not involved in that?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: So you weren't involved in coming to the decision that a warrant needed to be obtained because she was going to leave the country?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am. That's not my decision to make. That's the prosecution's decision.
MS. FULFORD: I didn't ask you if it was your decision. I said, you didn't participate in it?
PATRICK SANFORD: It depends on what you mean by "participate." I drove to Miami to participate, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Did you have any communication with any investigation agency in this case about the fact there was a one-way ticket to a country that doesn't extradite, and something probably needs to be done?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Thank you. I mean, because you got on the road then and went to Miami, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I did, just in case, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Just in case she traveled?
PATRICK SANFORD: No. Just in case they got a warrant.
MS. FULFORD: Just in case they got a warrant. But up to that point, there was no warrant?
PATRICK SANFORD: That is correct.
MS. FULFORD: From the date that Mr. Markel was murdered, this -- all of the investigation that took place, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. FULFORD: Hundreds of thousands of e-mails, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Some of them say -- she says bad things about Danny Markel and sometimes other people, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MS. FULFORD: And you've got all of that. You've got all of the call detail records, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: No warrant?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And she's been watched. She's been monitored. No warrant?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am, no warrant.
MS. FULFORD: You've got her on recorded calls in 2016 saying what she said. No warrant?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: You got a text message where she says, Outside your house. No warrant?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: You've got Katherine Magbanua who's come through her line and not being completely truthful, and no warrant?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. FULFORD: And it's not until the time that she has this trip that she's going out of the country that a warrant is obtained?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: At the time that she started planning that she was going to go out of town, there was no warrant?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: You were aware that she was getting a visa. You-all knew that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: She -- there was no warrant at that time?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: without a warrant, she's free to travel?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And when she -- you're aware in the investigation that she actually spoke to her attorney, and it was even on one of the recorded calls, it's okay to travel, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: No warrant?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. FULFORD: And you're aware, as part of the investigation, that someone else actually called the state attorney's office on the day that she traveled, spoke to Jason Newlin and asked the question because they were concerned about them leaving the country, and Jason Newlin at the state attorney's office said, There's no warrant, she's free to travel?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm not aware of that one.
MS. FULFORD: You never learned that in the investigation?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not that I'm aware of.
MS. FULFORD: Sorry. I thought you knew that.
In one of the calls, because you considered all of them, at least pieces of them, Charlie Adelson says to his mother -- and that's call G -- You've never hurt or threatened anybody.
And she says, I know.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. FULFORD: You at least considered that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So now they've packed their bags and they weren't -- there was no warrant, and they've made their reservation with no warrant, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: what caused you to leave Tallahassee on the day of their flight to go to Miami? Because there was no warrant.
PATRICK SANFORD: Because they told me they were considering it.
MS. FULFORD: who's they?
PATRICK SANFORD: The state attorney's office.
MS. FULFORD: They were considering getting it done?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. FULFORD: And you weren't going to wait to see if they were going to do it or not. You just got in your car and headed to Miami?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct. Because if I waited, I would get there after she was gone.
MS. FULFORD: Waited to see if they made a decision or waited to see if it was approved?
PATRICK SANFORD: If they made a decision.
MS. FULFORD: So what time did you leave Tallahassee to go to Miami?
PATRICK SANFORD: It was probably 9 o'clock, maybe, in the morning.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And what time did you arrive in Miami?
PATRICK SANFORD: Around six.
MS. FULFORD: Six?
PATRICK SANFORD: 6:00, 6:30, somewhere around there.
MS. FULFORD: It's normally an eight-hour drive, but maybe you stopped somewhere?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm sure I did.
MS. FULFORD: Stopped to get gas?
PATRICK SANFORD: Definitely.
MS. FULFORD: Maybe something to eat?
PATRICK SANFORD: Possibly.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So when you drive from Tallahassee to Miami, where did you go to?
PATRICK SANFORD: when I got to Miami?
MS. FULFORD: Yes, sir.
PATRICK SANFORD: To the airport.
MS. FULFORD: That was a very open-ended -- I wasn't asking from Tallahassee, obviously, but you were alert so you understood.
PATRICK SANFORD: Got to Miami airport.
MS. FULFORD: That's where you went to when you got to Miami?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: That's the first place you went?
PATRICK SANFORD: It is.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And when you got there -- had you been communicating on your trip with anyone at the state attorney's office to see if they had decided if they were going to get a warrant?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. FULFORD: And about what time did you learn they were going to get a warrant?
PATRICK SANFORD: That they were going to get a warrant or they got the warrant?
MS. FULFORD: That they were going to try and get one. That decision, when they decided that they were going to get a warrant, did you discuss?
PATRICK SANFORD: To my recollection, was around probably 3 o'clock, 3 or 4 o'clock.
MS. FULFORD: when they obtained it or when they decided?
PATRICK SANFORD: when they decided.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, the state attorney's office decides, we're going to get a warrant, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so. They were still pushing through to see if they were going to get a warrant, but that was the decision I thought at that point.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Around 3 o'clock. So you're still traveling at that time?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Not actually there?
MS. FULFORD: And they -- someone calls you, I guess?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't recall. It was either one of the two, yeah. Either calling me or I called them.
MS. FULFORD: So there was a phone communication?
PATRICK SANFORD: There was.
MS. FULFORD: Do you recall who you spoke to?
PATRICK SANFORD: Investigator Newlin, I'm sure.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. All right. So he says, we've decided we're going to try and get a warrant?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so.
MS. FULFORD: So you keep going. And when you get to the airport in Miami, where did you go to when you got to the airport? Obviously, you went inside. But, you know, where did you go to?
PATRICK SANFORD: I went to the front and met with an agent that I had been speaking with --
MS. FULFORD: So an agent from the FBI?
PATRICK SANFORD: There's an FBI agent that's assigned to the airport. I had already reached out and found out who he was and talked to him and just to find out if he was going to be able to assist to get the local police to assist.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And you spoke to him ahead of time, so when you got there, he's the first person you met with?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And everything was in order then?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know about in order, but he was in communication with the airport police.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And did you relay to him that, we are potentially getting a warrant on someone who has a flight, we are going to be here, there's going to be an FBI presence at the airport?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know if I relayed those exact -- I said, There's going to be somebody we're trying to get a warrant for. But, yes, this is happening. This is where we're at with it. Yes.
MS. FULFORD: You have been an investigator for a many number of years, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: So I haven't, and I'm sure my choice of words isn't necessarily going to be yours. But at the end of the day, that's what you had told them?
PATRICK SANFORD: Pretty much, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And in addition to you, as an FBI agent being there at the airport, from the time you got there through the time that Mrs. Adelson was arrested, what other agencies were present and assisting?
PATRICK SANFORD: Just the Miami -- I believe it's the Miami-Dade Sheriff's Department who are -- who have officers that are assigned there. we did talk to, I believe it was -- I didn't talk to them. The other FBI agent talked to them, but I believe it was the U.S. Customs Enforcement officers. They're plain clothes that work at the airport. I think they were there, also.
MS. FULFORD: At some point in that process, from your arrival until the time that she's arrested, did they assist you?
PATRICK SANFORD: They did. They approached her on the jet bridge.
MS. FULFORD: U.S. Customs?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe they were U.S. Customs.
MS. FULFORD: Can I have just one second, please?
(A pause in the proceeding.)
BY MS. FULFORD:
MS. FULFORD: At the time that you left Tallahassee to go to Miami, were you aware that Donna Adelson's attorney had spoken to the state attorney's office about her ability to travel because there was no warrant?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, I was not.
MS. FULFORD: Were you aware that as part of this investigation, Mrs. Adelson's attorney was told that if they should get a warrant, that she'd be allowed to turn herself in?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Objection; hearsay.
JUDGE EVERETT: Sustained. Please approach.
(Sidebar conference held as follows:)
JUDGE EVERETT: I thought this may come up. But as to this line of questioning, your client is waiving attorney-client privilege?
MS. FULFORD: She's allowing me to ask this question.
JUDGE EVERETT: Concerning that matter, if it gets into any communications between your client and her counsel and you are going to examine about, the State is going to be permitted to address those matters as well. If she is not waiving attorney-client privilege, that is something we're going to have to address outside of the presence of the jury. But as far as asking questions that go to what advice was given and how she acted in accordance with, either she's waiving or she's not.
MS. FULFORD: My question was whether or not he was aware that the state attorney's office had represented to Mrs. Adelson's attorney that if they should get a warrant, she could turn herself in.
JUDGE EVERETT: This is not just going to be in the context of the examination for this witness but any other context in which this might come up. If you need to discuss this with your client, please do so. But if you are getting into what was advised upon and how she acted in accordance with, this is going directly to privilege.
As to any matters that may come up during the defense case in chief, if you inquire into such matters, the State must be permitted to cross-examine or redirect examine on these matters.
MR. ZELMAN: Judge, it's my opinion -- my position is that what she is advised by a third party, in this case, the state attorney's office, is not privileged.
JUDGE EVERETT: I'm saying as it relates to going on with the evidence in this matter, if either Mrs. Adelson or anyone else starts getting into, this is how I acted in conformance with being advised, we are directly getting to the subject of privilege. Even if it's premature for this cross-examination, this is something that does need to be addressed. Is everyone clear on this?
MS. FULFORD: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. ZELMAN: Yes, Your Honor. And I know that we've talked to her generally about this topic. The specific question of whether or not it would require any sort of waiver, we have not, so we will address it with her.
JUDGE EVERETT: AS to the objection on hearsay, that remains sustained, but I did want to remain -- or bring this to the parties’ attention so it's clear.
MS. FULFORD: Thank you, Judge.
MR. ZELMAN: Thank you.
(Sidebar conference concluded.)
JUDGE EVERETT: You may continue with your cross-examination.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Might have lost my train of thought.
May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
JUDGE EVERETT: You may.
BY MS. FULFORD:
MS. FULFORD: Is it Agent, Special Agent?
PATRICK SANFORD: Either/or.
MS. FULFORD: Titles don't matter to you?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's fine.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Mr. Sanford, I'm showing you what's been marked for identification purposes as Defense Exhibit 60.
would you look at that for a moment before I ask you questions and just kind of review it?
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MS. FULFORD: Have you seen that document before?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so.
MS. FULFORD: And that's Mrs. Adelson, meaning Donna Adelson's, visa to travel to Vietnam, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: I'm going to get out of your space so you can have your own space, and I'll ask you questions.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MS. FULFORD: Now, you would agree that's the visa that she obtained to go to Vietnam, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And it was good for entry -- now, some of it is in Vietnamese and I don't know vietnamese. You may.
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: But it has it in English, the same information, right near the Vietnamese language. Do you see that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct. Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And the visa was good for entry valid from November 13, 2023, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And it was good until November 2, 2024, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: If the dates are read right, I would call that February 11, 2024.
MS. FULFORD: You know what? I forgot that they do it backwards. They don't have them in same date or -- I'm glad you pointed that out to me.
So it was until February 2 --
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: -- 2024?
And that's the 90 days, I guess, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Because it was a 90-day visa?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And according to the visa, it was issued for the purposes of tourism, right? If you kind of go down --
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am. I see it now. Yes, tourism. Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Tourism, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And the visa was issued, it said it was good for single/multiple entries, right? That's up near the top.
PATRICK SANFORD: Near the top. Good for single/multiple entries. Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And what that means is, is it's not that she can travel to Vietnam, and once she leaves, she can't come back, right? It means that she can come and go from Vietnam, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm not sure if that's what that means or not. I don't know.
MS. FULFORD: You're not familiar with that?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. May I approach?
BY MS. FULFORD:
MS. FULFORD: Thank you.
PATRICK SANFORD: You're welcome.
MS. FULFORD: So when you get to the airport and you spoke to the FBI agent there, what did you do next?
PATRICK SANFORD: Tried to find out what terminal they were at, that they were flying out of, and trying to get to that area. It's a pretty big airport, so we tried to move to that area.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. When you say "we," it's this group that you've talked about: Someone from the sheriff's office, someone from customs, and yourself?
PATRICK SANFORD: Probably. There might have been three of us. So we had to go through security, so that's a lengthy process to get through security, too, to go back.
MS. FULFORD: Sure. And at some point, you got to the gate where they were going to be?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And did you sit down somewhere?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, I don't believe I sat down.
MS. FULFORD: Did anybody else sit down?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't recall.
MS. FULFORD: So you-all just kind of stood up around the area of the gate where they were going to leave?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And you knew what Donna Adelson looked like, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: You knew what her husband looked like, Harvey, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And you're there. You're going to obviously recognize them if they're in the general vicinity of the gate, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And at some point, you saw them?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. I forgot to ask you this: So the warrant was actually obtained somewhere between five and six -- well, let me say it this way. It was obtained around five; it was entered. But you learned about it around 6 o'clock, I think you've previously said?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so. About the time I was getting to the airport is when I found out it was obtained.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And when you travel back to where the gate is and you-all go together, you said you didn't sit. Where were you with respect to the jetway?
PATRICK SANFORD: we were down a little ways. It's hard to describe how it's set up. There's different gates, and we were across the -- and there's a middle section, too, so we were on the back side. I didn't know if they knew what I looked like. I figured they did, because they had seen trials and we knew that they watched the trials, so I figured they knew what I looked like so I stayed away.
MS. FULFORD: Did you stay away from the other folks who were participating, like off by yourself?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, not necessarily.
MS. FULFORD: All kind of together?
PATRICK SANFORD: A couple of us were together.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. I don't do a lot of travel, so you feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But when I have gone on an airplane, was this airport like, you get into a section -- I forget what they call them. Like, the gates are at, like, different concourses, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: It was a terminal.
MS. FULFORD: Terminal.
PATRICK SANFORD: It was a concourse. Yeah, either way.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Either way. So a terminal. And when you walk down the terminal, are you describing that basically there was a walkway down to the end of the terminal, right, like kind of a middle row, if you will?
PATRICK SANFORD: To the terminal where they're going to get on the plane, you mean?
MS. FULFORD: Yeah. I'm sorry. I don't know the terminology. But when you're walking down towards the gate, there will be gates on one side and gates on the opposite side?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct. Correct.
MS. FULFORD: All right. Sorry about that.
PATRICK SANFORD: There's some other structures in the middle of this airport in between the gates. So you had some walls, you had some little stores, so it wasn't just like a big, open concourse.
MS. FULFORD: Right. Right.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MS. FULFORD: Little food shops along the way and magazines --
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MS. FULFORD: -- and all that kind of stuff?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. FULFORD: But the layout is basically, you've got a walkway with gates on each side?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And so I just want to make sure I understood your testimony. Their gate would have been on the left or the right? If you don't -- if you don't remember, if doesn't matter.
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't recall.
MS. FULFORD: You don't recall. But your testimony is you kind of went opposite of where their gate was where you could monitor them but not be where they could see you necessarily?
PATRICK SANFORD: Pretty much, yes. TI wasn't really monitoring them. Somebody else was.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Did you see them?
PATRICK SANFORD: I did.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And when you saw them, were they seated waiting for the flight?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so.
MS. FULFORD: I mean, the flight --
PATRICK SANFORD: Seated or standing, one of the two. But they were -- they were amongst the other passengers waiting to get on the plane in that area.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. The flight wasn't scheduled to take off until 8:10 p.m., right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That sounds correct.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So you were there for a couple of hours, and the warrant's issued, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: No. I didn't get there until about 6:00, 6:30. So I was at -- that's when I first arrived at the airport. By the time I got back there, they were pretty close to -- by the time I got through security, got everything, got back there, it was pretty close to boarding time.
MS. FULFORD: Pretty close to boarding time?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: But you saw them?
PATRICK SANFORD: I did.
MS. FULFORD: And were the other people who were participating, were they aware of what Mrs. Adelson looked like and her husband?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am, they were at this point.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Was everybody in plain clothes?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not everybody.
MS. FULFORD: who was not in plain clothes?
PATRICK SANFORD: The uniformed officers from Miami-Dade.
MS. FULFORD: was the officer standing with you-all?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe he might have been. One of them was.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. You pretty sure from where you are that she would not have been able to see this group of men, one of them with, I guess, insignia and gun belt and all that? You're pretty sure that they wouldn't have been able to see?
PATRICK SANFORD: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. There was no way they could see us where we were standing.
MS. FULFORD: How long did you observe them before they started boarding the flight?
PATRICK SANFORD: Guesstimating, maybe 20 minutes.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And what do you recall them having with them?
PATRICK SANFORD: Some small carry-on items. I don't recall.
MS. FULFORD: And they were dressed in normal clothes, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: They weren't disguised in any way?
MS. FULFORD: No wigs, hats, glasses?
PATRICK SANFORD: Nope.
MS. FULFORD: I'm sorry. What was your answer, how long you were there? You saw them for how long?
PATRICK SANFORD: Maybe 20 minutes. TI don't recall.
MS. FULFORD: Okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: Could have been longer.
MS. FULFORD: Did you-all travel to that vicinity together?
PATRICK SANFORD: All of us?
MS. FULFORD: Yes, sir.
PATRICK SANFORD: No. I believe it was me and the -- me and maybe the uniform officers. I think the customs officers were already there --
MS. FULFORD: Okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: -- before we got there.
MS. FULFORD: Okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: There was only like three or four of us that walked together down there.
MS. FULFORD: So somebody was already at the gate? Is that what you're --
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. All right. So they had a couple of carry-on bags, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And I'm not -- I might get the terminology wrong again, but when you go -- when they call you up and say, okay, you know, sections whatever, you can board the flight, old people, babies, all that stuff, right -- they have different calling periods; is that fair to say?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MS. FULFORD: So they started calling boarding for the flight. At some point, Mrs. Adelson and her husband got in the line to board the flight; is that right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: And you observed that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And they got in the line and then they, at some point, I don't know what it's called, but they have to show their phone ticket or a physical ticket to somebody to make sure they can go on, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I think they scan it maybe, yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So that's where you -- I call it like a little check-in place to make sure you got your ticket. I don't know what it's called. But then after you've shown your ticket, they let you by to board the plane?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And the area between where they give their ticket and -- or show their ticket and before they board the plane, is that what you're referring to as a jetway? Is that what you said?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am. After you scan the ticket in this particular airport -- they're all different. This particular airport, they scan their tickets, and they walk through these sliding glass doors. And it's like a tunnel that you walk down to go to the plane. Inside of that sliding glass door is where the officers were standing, waiting. The plain clothes customs officers were inside of that.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And that's where they were when Mrs. Adelson was arrested?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: She went past the ticket into the jetway?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Not actually get on the plane?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: But you had the warrant before they got in line, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And you watched them for however many minutes before they got called up to put their ticket in, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am. I wanted to get them -- not in a crowd of people, right in the middle of all these people; wanted to get them kind of separated off and after they're through the jetway by themselves over there.
MS. FULFORD: well, before they started -- I mean, when they got in line, then there are a bunch of people right there with them, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: There were people there with them the whole time. There were people sitting around them --
MS. FULFORD: Right.
PATRICK SANFORD: -- because it's very narrow seating --
MS. FULFORD: Right.
PATRICK SANFORD: -- where they're sitting, and they were right in the middle of all these people. And then they got in line with all these people. Once they go one at a time, people are going to the plane. Once they went through, those officers just stopped them, pulled them to the side away from the line and just began speaking with them.
MS. FULFORD: But when they go through the line, there's a line of people behind them going to get on the plane, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. FULFORD: So when they go through, the glass doors are going to open, and that's where you're going to take her into custody?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, off to the side, yes, past them where they're still getting on the plane but we're past them.
MS. FULFORD: People are getting on the plane. They're coming by through the same general vicinity of where you took her into custody?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MS. FULFORD: And those same people were out there while you sat there for however many minutes watching her where you could have taken her into custody there, too, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MS. FULFORD: But you didn't?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: You waited until she went through the little gate and then you arrested her?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And when she was taken into custody, her husband was standing there with her, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And you went through the little process that you went through. And you said they had two carry-on bags, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so.
MS. FULFORD: In your investigation, you learned that with the two carry-on bags, they had maybe some additional luggage, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am, checked luggage.
MS. FULFORD: Right. A couple pieces, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And in those couple of pieces, they had just regular clothing, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I assume, yes.
MS. FULFORD: They didn't show up with boxes full of clothes?
MS. FULFORD: And --
PATRICK SANFORD: well, I never saw the checked-on luggage. I have no idea how much they checked.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. So in your investigation, you didn't learn that?
PATRICK SANFORD: In my investigation, learn what?
MS. FULFORD: That they only had two checked bags and two carry-on?
MS. FULFORD: Okay. She obviously had her cell phone, and you've testified that you got that from her?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: And you described this little interaction before she gave you the cell phone. She didn't fight with you, did she? Like, she wasn't swinging on you?
PATRICK SANFORD: She didn't try to hit me, no, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: You didn't have to take her to the ground and grab it out of her hand?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am. I was very gentle.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. You got the phone?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And the phone is part of the evidence of what you went on, and somebody downloaded and looked to see what was on it, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, ma'am.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. And her husband, Harvey, he had some credit cards and a little bit of cash, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Mr. Adelson? I didn't search Mr. Adelson.
MS. FULFORD: Okay. Did Mrs. Adelson have a bunch of cash on her?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know. I didn't search her.
MS. FULFORD: So you're not aware of what they got when she was taken into custody?
MS. FULFORD: Okay. I need to ask Counsel something about your ruling, Judge. Could I have just one moment?
JUDGE EVERETT: Please approach.
(Sidebar conference held as follows:)
JUDGE EVERETT: I think this is the third or fourth break we've had to take in the examination -- no. No. No. "I'm needing to confer with Counsel." If there are -- do you need to take a break so you can confer on any other matters so we don't need to keep stopping?
MS. FULFORD: You know, maybe give us an opportunity to speak to Mrs. Adelson about what we addressed earlier.
JUDGE EVERETT: As to the attorney-client privilege issue?
MS. FULFORD: Yes, sir.
JUDGE EVERETT: Very well. we'll take a brief five-minute break. From there, how many -- how much longer do you think you're going to be with your cross?
MS. FULFORD: Almost done.
JUDGE EVERETT: By “almost,” what does that mean?
MS. FULFORD: Shorter than her new redirect this morning.
JUDGE EVERETT: Does the State need to be heard in any way?
(Sidebar conference concluded.)
JUDGE EVERETT: Members of the jury, we're going to take a brief five-minute break. The bailiff will take you to the jury room, and we'll finish with the cross-examination.
(Jury exits.)
JUDGE EVERETT: we will bring the jurors back in, in the next five minutes. If anyone needs to use the restroom, stretch your legs, please do so now.
(A recess in the proceeding.)
JUDGE EVERETT: All right. we do need to move on with the examination based on the hour. were you able to consult with your client as to the issue raised at sidebar?
MS. FULFORD: We just need one more minute, Judge, please.
JUDGE EVERETT: Please go as quickly as possible.
MS. FULFORD: We are, Judge.
(A pause in the proceeding.)
JUDGE EVERETT: All right. Do we need to address further what was -- what we spoke about at sidebar?
MS. FULFORD: We've taken care of it, Judge. Thank you.
JUDGE EVERETT: Please bring in the jurors.
will the defense need to confer with each other any further --
MS. FULFORD: we're done.
JUDGE EVERETT: -- concerning cross?
Please bring them in.
(A pause in the proceeding.)
JUDGE EVERETT: All right. I believe we have two jurors still using the bathroom. You can be seated for now.
(A pause in the proceeding.)
(jury enters.)
JUDGE EVERETT: You may continue with your examination.
MS. FULFORD: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MS. FULFORD:
MS. FULFORD: I just have a few more questions, Agent Sanford. These questions, I'm not asking for your belief or your opinion. I'm asking for direct evidence, okay?
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MS. FULFORD: In your -- in your investigation, you found no direct connection between Donna Adelson and Sigfredo Garcia, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And you found no direct connection between Donna Adelson and Luis Rivera, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: And Katie Magbanua has testified that -- I'm going to ask you a question, but I'm leading up to it.
Katie Magbanua has testified that she met Donna Adelson one time when she had a dental appointment at Adelson Institute, and they exchanged greetings at the front desk. Besides that, there's no direct connection between Katie Magbanua and Donna Adelson, is there?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. FULFORD: You have e-mails, voice messages, text messages, and later, recorded calls, direct evidence. On any of those things, did Donna Adelson ever say that she wanted Danny Markel to be killed?
PATRICK SANFORD: Those exact words?
MS. FULFORD: Those words. Did she say she wants him killed?
MS. FULFORD: Did she say she was planning to have him killed?
MS. FULFORD: Did she say she was hiring to have one -- have him killed?
MS. FULFORD: Someone to go and kill him?
MS. FULFORD: Did she say that she intended that he be killed?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, she did not say that.
MS. FULFORD: TI don't have any further questions.
JUDGE EVERETT: Redirect by the State?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CAPPLEMAN:
MS. CAPPLEMAN: You didn't have any direct evidence. Did you have any circumstantial evidence?
PATRICK SANFORD: A lot.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Is it up to this jury to decide if the evidence is sufficient?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: You were asked if you had any input on the timing of the arrest and why didn't you -- why did you arrest when you did? That wasn't your decision to make, was it?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And when did you decide you had probable cause to make an arrest of Donna Adelson?
PATRICK SANFORD: Personally?
MS. FULFORD: Beyond the scope of direct, Your Honor, and this is an opinion testimony.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Yes, it is.
BY MS. CAPPLEMAN:
MS. CAPPLEMAN: You were asked your opinion, weren't you?
JUDGE EVERETT: Hold on. Sustained, Ms. Cappleman.
BY MS. CAPPLEMAN:
MS. CAPPLEMAN: You were not the person responsible for making that decision of when to go to Miami and put handcuffs on her, were you?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, I was not.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. You were asked about Charlie's defense. wasn't Charlie's defense that he was being extorted? And was part of that defense that he and his mother -- he brought his mother in on that, didn't he? He told her about it?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. So they were both being extorted over the course of almost a two-year period before the bump, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct. That's what he said.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. And that's why she was writing those checks. She was being extorted?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Another part of that defense was that although they were being extorted, the payroll checks weren't actually going to Katherine Magbanua. She was just cashing them and then giving the money to somebody else?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct. That's what he said.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. And that's needed to explain why he was so friendly with her, both in those calls and on the texts and so forth, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: It's all to explain everything, yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Because you're not typically going to be sending "I love you" texts to your extortionist, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: So it was, Oh, I didn't know she was in on it, but now I realize she is?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct. He realized it after the fact, so he said.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. And the killers, according to Charlie Adelson, came to Tallahassee unsolicited, unprovoked. Nobody hired them. They came and just killed Dan Markel and then hoped to be able to get some money out of Charlie Adelson and Donna Adelson later?
PATRICK SANFORD: That is what Charlie Adelson said.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. And since Charlie Adelson didn't have enough money in his safe that night, the killers, through the mediator of Katherine Magbanua, agreed to put him on a layaway plan to pay this money over time?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct. It was a layaway plan for the extortion.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Part of the checks that Donna Adelson signed were the layaway plan to the gang member extortionists?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct. That's what he said.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And you were asked also about the Bar Mitzvah. Do you Know when the Bar Mitzvah was?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't recall.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. would it refresh your memory to take a look at the defendant's planner for 2014?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
So January 14 at 10:30 a.m. is L.A.'sS Bar Mitzvah.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: I'm sorry. I said 2014. That's not what I meant.
PATRICK SANFORD: Oh, sorry.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: what year was the Bar Mitzvah? This is how I caused the confusion last time.
PATRICK SANFORD: This would have been 2023, I believe.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: well --
PATRICK SANFORD: No. I can't see it.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. Let me -- it's no problem. I can --
All right. what year did she try to board the plane?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yeah. 2023.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: She tried to board the plane in 2023. we now know the Bar Mitzvah was scheduled to take place in January 2024, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. So it was a few months after she was scheduled to get on the plane?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And she knew that when she booked the plane because it's in the planner, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. So she knew if she was coming back for that Bar Mitzvah, she needed to be back no later than January 14, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Did she book a flight to return in time to attend the Bar Mitzvah on January 14?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not that I'm aware of.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: It was a One-way ticket, wasn't it?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. There's nothing inherently illegal about traveling to vietnam, is there?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: She didn't get arrested for going to Vietnam, did she?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, ma'am.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: I wanted to ask you about one other thing, the calls. You were asked about the snippets of the calls. That was Ms. Fulford's word, snippet. Did you participate in helping select the portions of the calls that we ended up publishing to this jury?
PATRICK SANFORD: some, yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And what was the intent or purpose of selecting the portions that were selected?
PATRICK SANFORD: So we didn't torture everyone with listening to constant Charlie Adelson and everybody else talking about things that are not relevant to the case.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. That was the goal. I'm not sure we accomplished it, but we made selections we thought would be helpful?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Did we include what we thought was the appropriate context so that things would not be taken out of context?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct, we did.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: If the jury has concerns about that, are the totality of the duration of all of those calls that were played available on State's Exhibit 99 for them to review in the jury room?
PATRICK SANFORD: They are.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: One moment, please, Your Honor.
JUDGE EVERETT: Go ahead.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Nothing further, Judge.
JUDGE EVERETT: Agent Sanford, you may finally step down.
PATRICK SANFORD: Thank you, Your Honor.
JUDGE EVERETT: will he be recalled by either party?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Potentially, Judge.
JUDGE EVERETT: You better run while the getting's good.
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm going.
JUDGE EVERETT: Members of the jury, we are going to take our lunch break at this point in time. Once again, I'm going to instruct you not to discuss this case with each other or any other person. Do not seek out any other outside information from the courtroom as well.
we will resume with the trial today -- let me take a look at the clock. We'll resume at 1:45. Please report by 1:40. Enjoy your lunch break.
(Jury exits.)
JUDGE EVERETT: Before we go into the break, there is one record matter that I need to address with both the defendant and the attorneys.
Mrs. Adelson, if you please can rise so I can swear you in. Please raise your right hand.
(Defendant sworn.)
DONNA ADELSON: Yes.
JUDGE EVERETT: You can lower your hand.
Mrs. Adelson, concerning these listed State witnesses for this afternoon, Patricia Byrd and Drina Bernhardt, you have discussed with your counsel the cross-examination strategy for these two witnesses?
DONNA ADELSON: Yes.
JUDGE EVERETT: I need you to speak up so you can be clearly heard.
DONNA ADELSON: Yes.
JUDGE EVERETT: You also understand how the cross-examination strategy will fit into your theory of defense?
DONNA ADELSON: TI couldn't hear what you said.
JUDGE EVERETT: You understand how this cross-examination strategy will fit into your theory of defense for the case?
DONNA ADELSON: Yes.
JUDGE EVERETT: And you have consented to this particular strategy?
DONNA ADELSON: Yes.
JUDGE EVERETT: And, Mr. Zelman, the matter that we discussed previously at sidebar as to the strategy, there are no other issues that the defense needs to bring to the Court's attention?
MR. ZELMAN: Based on the Court's ruling previously and reinforced this morning, no, Your Honor.
JUDGE EVERETT: If the attorneys can approach briefly as well.
(Sidebar conference held as follows:)
JUDGE EVERETT: One other matter that I need to read into the record as well. I did not want to embarrass Ms. Fulford in any way, but having observed Ms. Fulford's demeanor and witness examinations throughout the course of the trial, the Court had no concern with Counsel's lucidity during the cross-examination of Special Agent Sanford.
I will further note as well for the record that the cross-examination was not compromised by any issue previously discussed at sidebar. Counsel was able to appropriately challenge the substance of the evidence being offered by the State and also utilize the assistance of cocounsel, the defendant, and the rest of the defense team during the cross.
Does either party need to place anything on the record concerning that?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: NO, Your Honor.
MR. ZELMAN: No, Your Honor.
MS. FULFORD: No, Judge.
MR. ZELMAN: Thank you.
(Sidebar conference concluded.)
JUDGE EVERETT: At this time, we will have our lunch break as well. The parties will need to report back by 1:40. Once the jurors are ready, we will continue with the remaining witnesses.
Ms. Cappleman, as far as the number of witnesses that we still have remaining, the State intends to call them all today?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: That was the original plan, Judge, but we'll do what we can do.
JUDGE EVERETT: Best-laid plans. All right. Assuming that the State's case will need to extend in any way into Tuesday as to the last of the listed witnesses, the defense will need to be prepared to argue any mid-trial motions and have all witnesses ready to begin on Tuesday as well if the State does not finish today.
MR. ZELMAN: Yes, sir. Our -- I believe our first witness is the one that's going to be flying in from the west coast. She'll be in town Sunday evening. we'll prep with her Monday and she'll be here Tuesday. Her flight out, I don't think on Tuesday evening, is until after five so we'll have plenty of time for her testimony.
JUDGE EVERETT: All right. we'll resume at 1:40.
MR. ZELMAN: Thank you.
(A recess in the proceeding.)
JUDGE EVERETT: Do we have all of our jurors?
COURT CLERK: Yes, sir. (CiInaudible.)
JUDGE EVERETT: All right. I think the jurors need to use the bathroom.
(A pause in the proceeding.)
JUDGE EVERETT: while we have a minute, Ms. Cappleman, you have instructed witnesses Byrd and Bernhardt as to the Court's rulings?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Yes, Your Honor. Well, I've instructed Bernhardt.
MS. DUGAN: Byrd's attorney instructed her at my request.
JUDGE EVERETT: If any further instruction is necessary, let's address that before the jurors come in.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. I can step back there.
(A pause in the proceeding.)
(Jury enters.)
JUDGE EVERETT: Members of the jury, I hope you had an enjoyable lunch time.
State, please call your next witness.