Patrick Sanford — Cross (Continued)/Redirect/Recross
1,990 linesJUDGE HANKINSON: We're here in State of Florida versus Garcia, Magbanua, with both defendants present with their attorneys. Let me take up one issue. Mr. Zangeneh asked a question at the end of the day about time for preparation for closing. I didn't give him much of an answer. He probably deserves a little better answer there. There's still too many variables to know for sure, but it's unlikely that I'm going to stop the trial to provide recess time for closing. I will say we will have to have a charge conference with the attorneys, but all parties have multiple attorneys, so a little division of labor might help on that.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Any other issues we need to deal with? Before we move back into closing argument from the State.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: No, sir.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Defense.
JUDGE HANKINSON: We'll start with the jury. Nine o'clock. All right?
MR. ZANGENEH: Yes, sir.
MR. DECOSTE: Thank you, Your Honor.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Everybody Be seated, please. You may proceed, Mr. DeCoste.
MR. DECOSTE: Thank you.
MR. DECOSTE: Agent Sanford, you're with the FBI, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, sir.
MR. DECOSTE: You're a special agent.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: I just want to clarify for the jury, all agents are special agents, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: With the FBI, correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Correct. You start as a special agent.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Just to clarify that there's not something special about you as an agent. You're all special.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You've been them 20 years, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And in those 20 years, you've worked on about a dozen homicide cases?
PATRICK SANFORD: In my FBI career, correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, you've worked many more cases than those 12 or so homicide cases, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: A vast majority of the cases that you've worked have been federal prosecutions.
PATRICK SANFORD: Quite a few of them, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You would agree with me that it's not standard — it does happen, but it's not standard — that the Federal Bureau of Investigation comes in on a state-level prosecution.
PATRICK SANFORD: It happens quite a bit.
MR. DECOSTE: It happens when help is needed outside of Leon County. That would be an example, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's sometimes an example, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And that was one of the reasons why you were brought into this case, because help was needed outside of Leon County, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: At the beginning, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: What does FBI stand for?
PATRICK SANFORD: Federal Bureau of Investigation.
MR. DECOSTE: You would agree with me that the purpose of the Federal Bureau of Investigation is to investigate, by its name, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's one of our purposes.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, it's not just to investigate — and just talking about the investigation portion — not just to investigate, but to objectively investigate a case, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure, that's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You shrugged a little bit there. Why?
PATRICK SANFORD: Because we investigate a wide variety of things, and we need to cover those aspects.
MR. DECOSTE: We're just talking about when you're brought onto a case — state-level homicide prosecution — you're investigating it, that your job is to objectively investigate it versus subjectively investigate it.
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: So do you agree with me that your job is to objectively investigate a case?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's one of our jobs, correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Whether it is state or federal?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And once you've done your objective investigation, then present what you have to the prosecution, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, correct.
MR. DECOSTE: That would be your role in a case like this?
PATRICK SANFORD: One of our roles, correct.
MR. DECOSTE: I want to talk to you about your theory.
MR. DECOSTE: Agent, you've seen that board before, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Just a few minutes ago.
MR. DECOSTE: You know who all those people are, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I do.
MR. DECOSTE: You have, to the far right, you have Dan Markel?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: To his left, on the top, you have Wendi Adelson?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Then Harvey Adelson?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Donna Adelson?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Charlie Adelson?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: My client, Katherine Magbanua?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Sigfredo Garcia?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Luis Rivera?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And you believe that that is the group, more or less, that caused the death of Dan Markel?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Correct. The Adelsons wanted it to happen, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Rivera and Garcia did it.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And the connection is through Katherine Magbanua.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: The four people on the top, the Adelsons. Let's start with Harvey Adelson.
MR. DECOSTE: Has he ever been arrested on this case?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Ever been charged?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, he's not.
MR. DECOSTE: What about his wife, Donna?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, not yet.
MR. DECOSTE: Daughter, Wendi?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's — Wendi Adelson, ever been arrested?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Ever been charged?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: We're talking about this case, of course.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Charlie Adelson, has he ever been arrested in relation to the murder of Dan Markel?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Ever been charged?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Focusing on Katherine Magbanua, the only witness who gives you any testimony about Katherine Magbanua's involvement is Luis Rivera, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: He's the only one?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: He was originally looking at the death penalty, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know what he was looking at. I don't charge him.
MR. DECOSTE: Well, you've worked murder cases before.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: It's not abnormal for you to work them. You know about them, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I do.
MR. DECOSTE: And in a case like this, with the facts that you have, that would lead to a charge of first-degree murder, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: It's possible, not in every case.
MR. DECOSTE: You know in this case that Luis Rivera was charged with first-degree murder, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And first-degree murder normally carries with it the death penalty.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Or life.
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: Became your witness in exchange for that needle coming out of his arm, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know what he exchanged it for, but he did cooperate.
MR. DECOSTE: And it was his words and only his words that resulted in the arrest of Katherine Magbanua.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's incorrect.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's go through the chronology of dates.
MR. DECOSTE: Luis Rivera talks — he talks to you. He gives his formal statement to you for the first time on September 30th, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: How many days later was Katherine Magbanua arrested?
PATRICK SANFORD: The next day.
MR. DECOSTE: How many hours?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know the hours.
MR. DECOSTE: Less than 24, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Possibly.
MR. DECOSTE: I'm going to ask you a few questions about the Latin Kings, real quick.
MR. DECOSTE: You have professional experience with them, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: They're a criminal organization.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Well organized.
PATRICK SANFORD: Somewhat.
MR. DECOSTE: They make money through crime.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Including murder.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: It's a Latin-based gang.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Miami has a large Latin population.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Meaning they have a strong presence in South Florida.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Luis is not just a member, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right.
MR. DECOSTE: He's what's called the head crown. He's one of the leaders in the North tribe.
PATRICK SANFORD: My understanding.
MR. DECOSTE: He's the boss.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: He's the godfather of the North tribe.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Luis Rivera has a family with Jessica Rodriguez, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Whether it's his wife or his girlfriend, they're very close, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: As far as I can tell, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Part of your involvement coming onto the case, being the tentacles down in other areas, you went down to South Florida and on two separate occasions you met with Jessica Rodriguez, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Both of those conversations were recorded, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Now there was a third one, a third phone call with Sherry Bennett.
MR. DECOSTE: You know about that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I was told about it. I was not present for it.
MR. DECOSTE: And that's a recorded phone call. Let's put Luis Rivera aside for a second and talk about the other evidence that you believe that you have against Katherine Magbanua.
MR. DECOSTE: Let me know if I'm leaving anything out.
MR. DECOSTE: Bank deposits, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Breast surgery?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: The car?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: The patterns of phone calls?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Paychecks?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And then post-bump, more patterns of phone calls?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: What we referred to as Dolce Vita?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: In that she didn't contact the police?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: That sums it all up, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, not necessarily.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's go through each one and you can let us know what we're leaving out. You know the specifics of it.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's talk about how you approached the investigation with Katherine Magbanua.
MR. DECOSTE: You're investigating this case, you come onto the case in 2014, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Days after, you're brought in, you're the lead agent involved in it.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, you guys investigate Priuses all over the state, all over the southeast.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You investigate any and all leads that you can.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: But it comes up with nothing.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Nobody else was arrested in relation to this, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You eventually come back to this theory that the Adelsons were behind it, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And then more evidence develops and then you learn of Katherine Magbanua.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You want her to cooperate, right?
MR. DECOSTE: To give you the people that you think caused this to happen.
PATRICK SANFORD: To tell the truth.
MR. DECOSTE: My question to you is to give you the people that caused this to happen.
PATRICK SANFORD: My answer is for her to tell the truth.
MR. DECOSTE: You want her to cooperate.
MR. DECOSTE: That's what you'd like to see happen personally.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Sustained.
MR. DECOSTE: That's personally what you—
JUDGE HANKINSON: Sustained.
MR. DECOSTE: Your Honor, if I may impeach?
JUDGE HANKINSON: No, you can move on.
MR. DECOSTE: To get her to cooperate, you needed to build a case, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Can you repeat that question?
MR. DECOSTE: To get her to cooperate, you needed to investigate and get evidence against her, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: People cooperate without evidence. People just come forward and cooperate with us and tell us the truth sometimes without evidence against them.
MR. DECOSTE: Well, that's not what you did here. What you did is you started to investigate. You started to look into the bank deposits, the breast surgery, the car, the call activity, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: To tighten the screws.
PATRICK SANFORD: No, to find out the truth.
MR. DECOSTE: Now you found facts. You found the facts that we just talked about — the other non-Rivera stuff. You found that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: On its face, the Adelsons' Lexus, the — Garcia, who knows Rivera; she dated Adelson.
MR. DECOSTE: On its face, looks incriminating, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's not what led us to her.
MR. DECOSTE: My question, though, is it looks incriminating. You can agree with me.
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: It's okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure. Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: And that's how it was presented here.
MR. DECOSTE: Ms. Magbanua was driving around in the Adelsons' black Lexus. That's your words — "driving around."
MR. DECOSTE: Right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I said I saw her in the Lexus, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And that's, again, good evidence for your theory up here.
PATRICK SANFORD: It's a piece of the evidence, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Unless — and we're just talking about this piece right now — unless it was a legitimate purchase.
MR. DECOSTE: Right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not necessarily.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's talk about the condition of the car. What year? So it would be 13 years old, give or take, in 2014?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: The mileage — do you know what it is?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: If I were to say 160,000 miles, would that seem correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: I have no idea.
MR. DECOSTE: Do you know if the car was involved in any accidents?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm not sure.
MR. DECOSTE: Would you agree with me — actually, let me show you.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm looking up.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's the written mileage.
MR. DECOSTE: Yeah, 160,000 miles exactly. You agreed you looked at this objectively, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You just said it, there you go — "that's the written mileage," insinuating that somehow it was written there falsely.
PATRICK SANFORD: Because I have to take that with a grain of salt, though. It was handwritten on there and not verified by anybody.
MR. DECOSTE: Do you know the difference of looking at the world through clean windows versus dirty windows?
PATRICK SANFORD: Absolutely. That's how I looked at it.
MR. DECOSTE: Okay. So looking at it through clean windows, there's a selling price. Agree with me that this was not exactly a new car?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Not a fancy car. You have evidence that it was a legitimate purchase?
PATRICK SANFORD: I had evidence of the title. I had no other evidence to show that it was paid for legitimately.
MR. DECOSTE: So again, looking at it objectively — no evidence that she didn't pay for it.
PATRICK SANFORD: There was no evidence that she did pay for it, and I'll look for that.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's talk about how you investigated it, or better yet, how you didn't investigate it. You didn't deem it relevant to investigate any further, right? Did you deem it relevant to investigate it?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, to a certain extent.
MR. DECOSTE: And what extent is that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Trying to find if a purchase was made through checks, through cash withdrawals, through a loan, through her finances.
MR. DECOSTE: Do you remember what you said in deposition?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, not off the top of my head.
MR. DECOSTE: Would it help you to take a look at it?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: Page 73 to 74, start on line 16. Take a look.
MR. DECOSTE: Yeah, you're going to start on line 16. Just read down, let me know if that helps you.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I recall that.
MR. DECOSTE: You didn't deem it relevant, did you?
PATRICK SANFORD: I did not find the blue book value to be relevant, which is what you were asking me in my deposition.
MR. DECOSTE: So the Lexus itself is relevant against her here in trial, but it's not — the idea of the Lexus is relevant here in trial, but to investigate it doesn't fit your theory if Katherine Magbanua purchased an old, beat-up Lexus from the guy she was working with, the guy she used to be— Right?
JUDGE HANKINSON: Sustained.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's go to the wiretaps. Government's 138.
MR. DECOSTE: You remember yesterday how there was a call played, and I won't replay all these.
MR. DECOSTE: But how it was played yesterday, and there was a phone call from May 13th, how Charlie helped her pay for tires for the Lexus?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Good for the theory, right?
MR. DECOSTE: He's buying her things.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Yesterday, I asked you to review some CDs of other phone calls.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And you did that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I reviewed some of them. Other ones I had to just look at the summary, because I didn't have time to review them all.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, there's one CD labeled 1672-934, and that's from April 22nd of 2016.
MR. DECOSTE: You reviewed that CD, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Which CD was it? 1672?
MR. DECOSTE: Correct.
PATRICK SANFORD: That was the call number?
MR. DECOSTE: 1672?
PATRICK SANFORD: That is not here.
MR. DECOSTE: We'll come back to that.
MR. DECOSTE: You have all of them up there, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: All of the CDs, I believe so. The one you left up here.
MR. DECOSTE: We'll circle back around.
MR. DECOSTE: You've listened to all the phone calls, though, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Every phone call on the wire, no.
MR. DECOSTE: All right. So you may or may not have listened now to call 1672.
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm not positive which one that is. I was in Miami for a lot of the wire.
MR. DECOSTE: All right. Well, we'll take a brief break. We'll grab it, we'll bring it up, and we'll come back to that.
MR. DECOSTE: The review of the calls that you did review — you remember hearing conversations about how Katherine purchased the vehicle from Charlie Adelson for $2,500, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, not in a conversation. I remember conversations where he's telling her to get it titled. She had the vehicle.
MR. DECOSTE: Again, we'll come back to call 1672. Okay, let's go over to the paychecks now. Your theory is that she's getting paychecks from a place that she's not working, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's my theory. That's what the evidence shows.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, the evidence you say — you're talking about the pole camera, the eight months' worth of video that you took out in front of Katherine Magbanua's house, right? That's some of the evidence?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: That's the evidence that you have that you believe that she wasn't working there, because she wasn't physically going to the Adelson Institute, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Along with her cell phone that showed she wasn't going, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Get into that. Charlie Adelson — a traveling periodontist, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Never at one location, really, for that long. He's traveling around to different dental offices. He's all over the place, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sometimes, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, you learned that Katherine Magbanua's job for the Adelson Institute is to contact patients, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, I did not learn that.
MR. DECOSTE: Yesterday, when we played call E — you remember that, in Government's 138? Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: You remember at the 10:31 mark where Charlie says to Katherine, "Did you call those patients?" Okay. Do you want to hear it again?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, I believe you.
MR. DECOSTE: You agree with me that there's evidence in a phone call from your wiretaps where Charlie is telling Katherine, "Call the patients."
PATRICK SANFORD: I agree that Charlie told her a lot of things, like thanks for cleaning up on the weekend, too.
MR. DECOSTE: We're not talking about that right now. We're talking about the fact — now, let's back up here. The — The bump happens on what date?
PATRICK SANFORD: The bump is on the 19th of April, '16.
MR. DECOSTE: Say that again. Now, April — April 19th?
PATRICK SANFORD: April 19th.
MR. DECOSTE: And you would agree with me that there was no communication to these people that they were being monitored.
PATRICK SANFORD: These people — which people?
MR. DECOSTE: The people that you had wiretapped: Katherine Magbanua, Charlie Adelson.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You don't send them notification, "Hey, we're taking a wiretap on you," because you're trying to catch pure communications, right? Ahead of time.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: In front of you, you have a CD for 899-519 slash 520.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You listened to that last night, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, that's a call from April 15, 2016.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Days before the bump, correct? Days before anybody would think, "Hey, we may be getting wiretapped."
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And on that call, Katherine says —
JUDGE HANKINSON: This is one of the ones in the evidence, is it not?
MR. DECOSTE: It's not, Your Honor. I got it pre-marked.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I'll sustain the objection.
MR. DECOSTE: Defense moves it in. What's pre-marked is Defense 26.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Objection?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Hearsay.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Sustained.
MR. DECOSTE: Agent, in the phone calls you reviewed, that are pre-bump, there's no conversation, "I don't work for you." Right?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Objection. Hearsay.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Sustained.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's go back to the investigation and what wasn't done.
MR. DECOSTE: You learn that her job is contacting patients.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's incorrect. I heard that on a call, but that's one of many conversations they had. I did not learn any other way that she was doing that.
MR. DECOSTE: Okay. You believe she doesn't work there because she's not going to a location, because her cell phone shows that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: And because we're listening to her phone and there's no calls being made to patients.
MR. DECOSTE: You don't know her job description, whether it requires her to go to the office, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, we don't.
MR. DECOSTE: You don't know what software the Adelson Institute runs to allow people to work remotely, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, we don't.
MR. DECOSTE: You don't know that they use Dentrix, where you can log in and you can view patient files, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No idea.
MR. DECOSTE: You don't know if she was supplied a work phone or a home line to be communicating with those patients, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: There was no evidence of that. She actually made comments about working on her cell phone.
MR. DECOSTE: There's no evidence because it wasn't investigated, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I think so.
MR. DECOSTE: Your Honor, I believe this is an objection for the government.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I'm sorry, the beep distracted me. I'm sorry — the objection is what?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Argumentative.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Sustained.
MR. DECOSTE: Agent. You're aware that people can make phone calls through internet devices as well, too, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Case-by-case basis, yes. It's possible.
MR. DECOSTE: So what you're saying is that you have evidence that she's using her phone, but at the same time saying that that's evidence that she's not working there?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, there was no evidence that she was using that phone for work. She stated she used that phone for work, and we had zero evidence of it, because we were listening to all of her calls.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, again, you objectively investigated all of this.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: At some point in time, you get Charlie Adelson's iCloud messages.
PATRICK SANFORD: Is that Apple information?
MR. DECOSTE: Is Apple information, correct. You went through all of it, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I personally didn't go through all of it, no.
MR. DECOSTE: This may be where the problem is.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Objection. Move to strike.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Jury disregard counsel's comments.
MR. DECOSTE: Showing you what has been entered in as Defense 15. Before I show you that though, when was it that Katherina Magbanua started receiving checks from the Adelson Institute? Do you remember?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't remember the exact date. I want to say it was around September of 2014.
MR. DECOSTE: If I were to say that the first check, in the memo line, was September 15, 2014 through September 18, 2014?
PATRICK SANFORD: That sounds correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Does that seem about right?
PATRICK SANFORD: It seems about right.
MR. DECOSTE: I'm showing you what was entered into the memo line.
PATRICK SANFORD: No, I have not.
PATRICK SANFORD: 9-14-014.
MR. DECOSTE: Correct me if I'm wrong — that's one day before the date of employment in the memo line.
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: For the next topic: breast surgery.
MR. DECOSTE: At some point you get the records — her medical records — from the breast surgery that she had, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Those are sent to TPD, not to me.
MR. DECOSTE: But you see it eventually, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't think I saw the records, no.
MR. DECOSTE: You know about it?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: I'm not going to ask you specifics on it, but you know about it.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, correct.
MR. DECOSTE: The breast surgery was paid for partly in cash — mostly in cash, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And you believe that that goes to your But that was a gift from Charlie Adelson for helping commit the murder of his brother-in-law, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Partially, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You cannot say where that cash came from, can you?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, we couldn't trace it back to anything — any legitimate purpose, legitimate source.
MR. DECOSTE: That goes right into our next topic: the cash, including the cash deposits.
MR. DECOSTE: You can't say where any of the cash that was deposited into her account came from, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, we cannot.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's talk about what investigation you did.
MR. DECOSTE: You learned 2013 — 2014, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You had no doubt that she was working at nightclubs — your words — right?
MR. DECOSTE: And someone working VIP bottle service in a nightclub in Miami could make cash tips, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: In your investigation of Katherine Magbanua, of course you looked at her social media, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Some of it, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You went through the photos. You, in conjunction with the Tallahassee Police Department, subpoenaed her Facebook records, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And on her Facebook account there are photos. You looked at those, you looked at communications — anything you could find to help build your case, correct?
MR. DECOSTE: You know what that is, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I've seen it. That's a photograph.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Objection. Hearsay.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I'll overrule the objection.
MR. DECOSTE: You know that that's a photograph from Katherine Magbanua's Facebook account, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, you know that because you reviewed it, and she's in the photo, correct? And that fairly and accurately depicts what you saw on Facebook, right — the historical Facebook?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: The pre-marked as Defense 21.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Objection?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Hearsay and a lack of foundation.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I'll overrule the objection. Be admitted. Defense 21.
MR. DECOSTE: Before I move on to this Facebook photo, part of the investigation you did: as well, you pulled Katherine Magbanua's email accounts, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes. I did not personally pull her email accounts, no.
MR. DECOSTE: But somebody did. Were you — and it may be a no here — were you advised of emails from a company called 2BTU-BE Branding from 2012?
PATRICK SANFORD: 2012?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: What about Dollhouse Marketing for 2013?
PATRICK SANFORD: '13? No.
MR. DECOSTE: This would be along the lines of: did you ever learn that she was helping do brand promotions for liquor companies in conjunction with working at nightclubs?
PATRICK SANFORD: I think we had the indication of that early on, in '12 and '13, well before everything.
MR. DECOSTE: This is your indication, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: If you could tell the jury: when is this from?
PATRICK SANFORD: Looks like May of 2013.
MR. DECOSTE: You've gone through all her No paychecks from these companies, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: In 2013, no, there was not.
MR. DECOSTE: What about 2014?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, there was not.
MR. DECOSTE: You would agree with me that a liquor company doing an event at what looks like a park may be paying their people in cash?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure, absolutely.
MR. DECOSTE: What did you learn of the nightclubs that she was working at?
MR. DECOSTE: And those nightclubs are — what are the names of them?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't recall off the top of my head.
MR. DECOSTE: Investigated them, though, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Investigated them.
MR. DECOSTE: Investigated what?
MR. DECOSTE: You don't know the names of them?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't remember them today, no.
MR. DECOSTE: Remember all the facts that helped the favor?
JUDGE HANKINSON: Mr. DeCoste, that's not appropriate.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Jury, disregard.
MR. DECOSTE: Agent, you're brought onto this case to investigate things in South Florida, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: There's two nightclubs in South Florida that you learned Katherine Magbanua was working at, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: One of them is Hollywood Live, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: The other, Club Faith.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You made many trips — many trips to South Florida, actually all over the state of Florida, many trips. You never once went to one of those nightclubs, did you?
PATRICK SANFORD: Because— no, I didn't.
MR. DECOSTE: You learned that her employment with these nightclubs — through your investigation, you learned that that employment continued, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Which employment?
MR. DECOSTE: Working at the nightclubs.
PATRICK SANFORD: To when? My investigation showed that it probably stopped around mid-'14.
MR. DECOSTE: Your investigation?
PATRICK SANFORD: Including your income tax, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: What's the name of the nightclub that she's receiving a check from?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sins Club.
MR. DECOSTE: What's below that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Fate.
MR. DECOSTE: That's a nightclub that we just brought up.
MR. DECOSTE: And what's the date of that check?
PATRICK SANFORD: 6 of '18.
PATRICK SANFORD: 6 of '15, I mean.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, this — have you ever seen this before?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I have seen that.
PATRICK SANFORD: It was an irregularity. She wasn't receiving.
MR. DECOSTE: You knew she was working there in 2014 and 2013, but there was never a point where she was receiving checks for tips, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right.
MR. DECOSTE: So this seemed like a one-off thing.
PATRICK SANFORD: It seemed like they were giving her a check, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: But you agree with me that —
PATRICK SANFORD: In 2000 — yes, in June of 2015, she received a check, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: That memo line doesn't say 2014, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right.
MR. DECOSTE: And you have no evidence that there was a break in her employment there, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I have no evidence there was a break. I have no evidence that she was continuing work there between then and then.
MR. DECOSTE: Never spoke to a manager?
MR. DECOSTE: Never spoke to an owner?
PATRICK SANFORD: Nope.
MR. DECOSTE: Never spoke to any of their regular patrons on their VIP list?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, I did not.
MR. DECOSTE: To find out their net worth and the type of tips one would give a VIP bottle girl in Miami?
PATRICK SANFORD: Nope.
MR. DECOSTE: You would agree with me, Miami is a lively place.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: The nightlife is almost like the Las Vegas of the east, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: There's a lot of high net worth people that live there and that travel there.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: That the tips — do you agree?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know personally, no.
MR. DECOSTE: You would agree that the tips that one would give at a place like that may be different than other locations.
PATRICK SANFORD: I have no idea.
MR. DECOSTE: Your neighborhood bar bartender may be making less than a VIP bottle girl at a massive nightclub. Without ever having gone to Club Fate, you can't even say the magnitude of the nightclub, can you?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: In your review of my client
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, because
MR. DECOSTE: she's in the photo. And you also reviewed her Facebook, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And that fairly and accurately depicts what she had on social media, right?
JUDGE HANKINSON: Sustained.
MR. DECOSTE: We'll request a break.
JUDGE HANKINSON: We'll take 15 minutes.
MR. DECOSTE: It has to do with my cross-examination right now, I believe, is being limited by the court.
MR. DECOSTE: This witness — and I've got specific language that I do want to read into the record, but in a nutshell, this witness has a bias. I am trying to cross that witness on that bias.
MR. DECOSTE: Part of it is the investigative decisions that he made, and what I'm trying to introduce is not being entered for the truth of the matter asserted. It's things that he knew. For example, the phone call talking about purchase of a vehicle. This witness has testified saying there's no evidence whatsoever that it was legitimately purchased. There is evidence. The government yesterday was allowed to enter in a phone call that had nothing to do with an alleged conspiracy, but instead was about tires on a Lexus as well. And I believe that it's along the same lines when they called Erika Johnson to the stand — when she testified inconsistently, they were allowed to play an entire phone call to the jury. I am doing the exact same thing. This witness has testified there's no evidence of something when there is clear evidence from their own evidence. If Your Honor wants me, I can read this in now, or if Your Honor wants me —
JUDGE HANKINSON: I don't know what you're talking about.
MR. DECOSTE: The State is confusing argumentative questions with effective cross-examination or impeachment. Crossing on investigative decisions goes to witness bias and/or motive to lie, so statements going towards establishing that are not offered for the truth of what Ms. Magbanua is saying — it's being offered to show what the witness chose to ignore. "All witnesses are subject to cross-examination for the purpose of discrediting them by showing bias, prejudice, or interest. This is especially so where a key State witness is being cross-examined." That comes from Jones v. State, 385 Southern Second 132. It's a Fourth DCA case from 1980.
MR. DECOSTE: Another quote — this one comes from Lavette v. State, that's L-A-V-E-T-T-E, v. State, 442 Southern Second 265.
MR. DECOSTE: That's a Florida First DCA case from 1983.
MR. DECOSTE: "Defense should be allowed wide latitude to demonstrate bias or possible motive for witness testimony."
MR. DECOSTE: Your Honor, when I was asking questions of this agent, what he personally wanted — we have a recording of him saying, "I want the people that I believe were involved in this. That's what I want." He used the words "personally." I was trying to impeach him, trying to ask him first and then was planning on impeaching him with that recording. The third topic that we had — the court is effectively limiting this. Magbanua's Sixth Amendment right to confront witnesses — that's coming from DC v. State, 400 Southern Second 825.
MR. DECOSTE: It's a Third DCA case from 1981.
MR. DECOSTE: Quote: "The right to confrontation under the Sixth and Fourteenth Amendments may in certain cases require an opportunity to develop issues of bias by cross-examination. All witnesses are subject to cross-examination for the purpose of discrediting them by bias, prejudice, or interest," especially where a key witness is being crossed.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I'll deal with each question as it comes up, do the best I can to make an appropriate ruling. If there is a conviction in the case, an appellate court will decide whether I was right or wrong. So that's where we stand on that. That's arguable. But what is not arguable, Mr. DeCoste, is you making comments in front of a jury. There is no excuse, there is no basis for you making personal comments in front of the jury. And we're not going to have any more of those. Do I understand?
JUDGE HANKINSON: Do you understand me?
MR. DECOSTE: Yeah, sure.
JUDGE HANKINSON: All right. Let's have the jury, please.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Please, Mr. Corcoran.
JUDGE HANKINSON: May I be seated, please?
JUDGE HANKINSON: May I be seated?
MR. DECOSTE: Agent, before we broke, we were talking about compliance at nightclubs during 2013, '14, and '15.
MR. DECOSTE: We were talking about how that related over to cash deposits. Do you remember that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's turn over to other sources.
MR. DECOSTE: You know that Katherine Magbanua had how many children with Sigfredo Garcia?
PATRICK SANFORD: Two.
MR. DECOSTE: Two young children, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's pull that check, please, Mr. DeCox. It's actually here, so nobody walks over the cable. It's there, so nobody walks over the cable. On the screen.
MR. DECOSTE: Pull the check off to the screen.
MR. DECOSTE: You don't know how he was helping provide for those children, do you?
PATRICK SANFORD: Toward the end, he was working at Rapid Capital Funding, yes. Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: What you just said — I don't know if the jury heard it. Rapid Capital Funding. He was working at Rapid Capital Funding?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Receiving a paycheck?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Prior to that, you don't know, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, we had no evidence of what he was earning.
MR. DECOSTE: You were there for his arrest, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Correct me if I'm wrong. When you arrested him, he had $5,000 cash on him.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's turn now to the bump.
MR. DECOSTE: This took place south of Fifth in Miami, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: It was a big operation, compared to —
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure. Yeah, it was a big operation.
MR. DECOSTE: You had a pre-operation meeting at the Miami Beach Police Department.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You had personnel from the Miami Beach Police Department.
MR. DECOSTE: You had agents flown in, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, that's incorrect.
MR. DECOSTE: You only had local Miami agents.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You're not a Miami agent, are you?
PATRICK SANFORD: I did not fly in. Myself and the undercover drove down. We're the only ones from out of town.
MR. DECOSTE: Drove. The FBI pays for the gas, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Pays for the car?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: For people to travel down to South Florida for this operation?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: That costs money?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: There was also task force officers present, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Um, I know one or two.
MR. DECOSTE: Robert Lanier?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And those are people that work in conjunction with the local police force and a federal agency, in this case the Federal Bureau of Investigation, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: There's also a lot of video equipment that was brought, and it was filmed from multiple angles, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And now, you were the lead of this operation, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, and I'm thinking it was probably somebody above you said, hey, we should have a high-altitude plane flying overhead as well, too.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Not a helicopter. Not a small — a high-altitude plane flying overhead doing additional video surveillance.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Not an inexpensive operation.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I do.
MR. DECOSTE: That's a copy of the flyer that the undercover provided to Mrs. Peterson. The only reason why we have a copy is because you don't have a copy of the original, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: It quote, slipped — lift our minds.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct. During the operation, I was responsible for getting everyone on the street, getting out there on time. We were debating on the amount to put on there, and I was talking on the phone to TPD, sending people out the door. We were trying to get out there before Ms. Adelson crossed the street, and at the last second we wrote it down on the paper and ran out the door. It was my mistake for not taking a picture of it.
MR. DECOSTE: You agree with me that you should have copied it.
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: Didn't have to be done last minute, did it?
PATRICK SANFORD: Uh, it did, because we were debating on the amount.
MR. DECOSTE: That doesn't necessitate the need to do it at the last minute, does it?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's what happened. It happened at the last minute.
MR. DECOSTE: Could have done it at the pre-operational meeting.
PATRICK SANFORD: This was a pre-operational meeting.
MR. DECOSTE: So you have a pre-operational meeting at the Miami Beach Police Department before all this happens, and nobody can take out a cell phone, snap a photo?
PATRICK SANFORD: We could have, and like I said, it slipped my mind, because I'm worried about officer safety and getting everything on the street.
PATRICK SANFORD: But that was not our key piece of evidence that we were worried about at that time.
MR. DECOSTE: We have to take the FBI's word of what was written on the piece of paper that was handed to Donna Adelson, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Along with the phone calls to substantiate what was written on it, correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Well, on none of those calls did we hear anybody say exactly what was written on it, did we?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, but you can hear inferences of what was written on it.
MR. DECOSTE: So we're taking somebody else's opinion of what was on there as evidence of what was on there?
PATRICK SANFORD: It's not an opinion when they're talking about the amount and the phone number. That's what the key evidence was, then calling back to that phone number.
MR. DECOSTE: Does that mean that they read the entirety of what was on there? Let me rephrase that, because that was a little bit confusing for you. You're talking about how on the phone Donna Adelson says five thousand, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Does that mean that she was reading everything that was written on there?
PATRICK SANFORD: Absolutely. That was the only thing written on there besides the phone number.
MR. DECOSTE: Did she say anything about "there are definitely people that I continue to run into in Miami"?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, we didn't handwrite that.
MR. DECOSTE: So she didn't say everything that was on the paper, all the words on the paper.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: The activity and the purpose of this whole bump is you hand the paperwork to Donna Adelson and you want to see what happens, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct. We want to see who that number goes back to and who it ends up with — the phone tree.
MR. DECOSTE: And it goes from Donna Adelson to Charlie Adelson to Katherine Magbanua to Sigfredo Garcia, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: But this was a controlled bump.
PATRICK SANFORD: What do you mean by controlled?
MR. DECOSTE: Let me explain.
MR. DECOSTE: They didn't just walk up and hand this piece of paper to Donna Adelson and see what —
PATRICK SANFORD: That's pretty much what we did, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: No. Correct me if I'm wrong — the undercover said "your son," right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Oh, yes, he had conversation with her, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Said the name Katherine twice?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Said the name Tuta twice?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: So it was controlled. The information that was given was controlled, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: The information that our agent gave them — we gave them specific information to get them, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And that was the exact communication pattern. Donna calls her son going, hey, a guy just gave me a piece of paper, said — you said Katherine.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's incorrect.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's talk about that.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: Because you're talking about the fact that you don't know whether it was Katherine or ex-girlfriend, right? That's what you're talking about.
PATRICK SANFORD: Exactly. That's exactly what she said.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, you don't have any WhatsApp communications between Donna Adelson and Charlie Adelson, do you?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, we don't.
MR. DECOSTE: But you know from the wiretaps that he uses it, don't you?
PATRICK SANFORD: At some point later on, it seems he does, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, let's talk about his — in the language, it was "ex-girlfriend," right? That Charlie told his mother that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, they said "ex."
MR. DECOSTE: We're going to step aside for a second. We're going to talk about his relationships. Through your investigation, you meet with many people.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's incorrect.
MR. DECOSTE: She explains to you the series of girlfriends, right? How she was his girlfriend at one point, and before her there was a girl named Whitney?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And before Whitney there was Katherine.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You knew that the relationship with Katherine was a long relationship, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Somewhat, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And you believe that during that relationship Katherine met one or all of the Adelsons — obviously Charlie, because they're dating, but the other three of the Adelsons, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You don't know the extent of the relationship with Whitney, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yeah, I believe I do.
MR. DECOSTE: You have no evidence that she ever even met his parents.
PATRICK SANFORD: We interviewed Whitney.
MR. DECOSTE: Your Honor, if we we can go sidebar? For Richardson hearing.
MR. DECOSTE: Agent, you remember when I took your deposition March 6, 2019, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: I went over every single action you've done, every single report.
MR. DECOSTE: You remember that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And I asked you, is there anything that I'm leaving out? You remember that?
PATRICK SANFORD: I do.
MR. DECOSTE: Never mentioned ever meeting with Whitney, did you?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't remember.
MR. DECOSTE: Do you want to take a look at it?
PATRICK SANFORD: No. Did you bring up — did you ask me if I interviewed Whitney?
MR. DECOSTE: Do you remember when I asked you, is there anything that I'm leaving out?
PATRICK SANFORD: And I said, as far as I can remember.
MR. DECOSTE: When did you meet with her?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't remember the date.
MR. DECOSTE: It was, of course, after the bump, after the arrest.
MR. DECOSTE: And who was present for this meeting?
PATRICK SANFORD: Investigator Isom.
MR. DECOSTE: So this would have been before he retired. It would have been years ago.
MR. DECOSTE: Correct. As you sit here, though, you have no idea of the extent of the relationship that Charlie Adelson had with Whitney.
PATRICK SANFORD: The extent of the relationship? I don't know what you mean by that.
MR. DECOSTE: Whether Donna Adelson would ever consider Whitney an ex-girlfriend as opposed to a fling?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe Donna knew who Whitney was.
MR. DECOSTE: You don't know that for sure, though, do you?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'd have to go back and review stuff. I don't remember exactly off the top of my head now.
MR. DECOSTE: So June was post everything, so it couldn't have been June.
MR. DECOSTE: You have the bump. So, again, this is 2016, the bump is going on, and during the time — around that time of the bump — he's with June?
PATRICK SANFORD: Around the time of the bump, yeah, I believe so.
MR. DECOSTE: All right. So it can't be June. She's not the ex-girlfriend. — is the ex-girlfriend. So — Let's come back over to this. You have the bump, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: The communication then goes to Charlie, right? Whatever the conversation in between him and Donna, whether it's a WhatsApp, whether it's the inferring that it's got to be Katherine because she's the ex-girlfriend — he then contacts the other person that the undercover named, Katherine, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Katherine gets the information from Charlie, says the other name, and then she contacts the other person that was named, Tuta. Correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: What would have been — and correct me if I'm wrong — is if you had done this without giving any message whatsoever. The wiretaps — Correct me if I'm wrong — the wiretaps are going on around the time of the bump. They start a little bit before and they continue about a month and a half after. That's correct? You get wiretaps on Katherine Magbanua and Charlie Adelson, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Not on Wendi Adelson?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Not on Donna Adelson?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Not on Harvey Adelson?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Not on Jessica Rodriguez?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Not on Sigfredo Garcia?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: You had a plane at high altitude to film the handing of a piece of paper, but you don't get wiretaps on people that you believe are involved in the conspiracy, right?
MR. DECOSTE: You don't have any access to what, if any, WhatsApp messages were going on amongst anybody, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, WhatsApp — and you know what WhatsApp is, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You can make phone calls through WhatsApp as well, too.
PATRICK SANFORD: You can.
MR. DECOSTE: Coming back over to Apple — one could make a FaceTime call, no records of that, right? Correct. You wouldn't even know that any of these communications ever happened. Not only is there not a recording, there's no data saying, hey, on this date these people spoke, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I think on the cell phones it actually shows a data transmission, if I'm not mistaken, but that's a Corbitt question.
MR. DECOSTE: Sergeant Corbitt?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sergeant Corbitt question. We'll ask him.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, during these wiretapping calls, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I guess.
MR. DECOSTE: You listen to them, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not all of them.
MR. DECOSTE: There's over two months' worth of recordings?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, given the fact that Kathy's on the wiretaps, it's a lot of her phone calls, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Not once does she say anything about being involved in a murder. Not once.
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: You secretly record people to get their conversations, to see if there is evidence, right? To get certain types of evidence?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: And again, it's done in secret. It's not done putting these people on notice — hey, we're listening to your every word, your every communication, your every thought, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Instead, yesterday we listened to conversations about TI and tattoos, right? Among other things?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Charlie and Katherine communicating after the bump, that wasn't regular, was it?
PATRICK SANFORD: It wasn't what?
MR. DECOSTE: It wasn't out of the blue. It wasn't, hey, I haven't talked to you in a long time, I'm immediately going to call you because this bump just happened. You said irregular?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: It wasn't regular, right? The wiretap begins on April 8th, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: One could think that when the bump happens, people may start thinking, hey, we may be listened to, right? That's a natural assumption?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: So between 4-8 — so April 8, 2016, going up to April 19, 2016, when the bump happens — they're regularly communicating, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: There's calls on April 11th, right? April 12th? April 13th, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: If you're saying so. I don't have the list in front of me.
MR. DECOSTE: You're the only one with it in front of you. But you know that they were regularly communicating, correct? Now, prior to April 8th, we don't have any call detail records. Let me rephrase that. You have call detail records from years prior, but for the beginning part — let's say from the start to April 2016 — you don't have call detail records for Katherine Magbanua or anybody else.
PATRICK SANFORD: What do you mean, call detail records?
MR. DECOSTE: Stuff from the cell phone provider saying, hey, these are all the communications somebody's having prior to April, just prior to the bump.
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm not aware of that.
MR. DECOSTE: You believe that it's evidence because —
PATRICK SANFORD: — that's part of the evidence.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's get to that. Katherine — nobody went up to her with it.
MR. DECOSTE: Making demands, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Nobody called her. No undercover called her, right? Right? Threatening her?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Nobody messaged her?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Emailed her?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: She was never contacted?
PATRICK SANFORD: By the undercover?
MR. DECOSTE: Correct.
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: So it wouldn't be her position to say, hey, somebody else is being —
PATRICK SANFORD: Can you repeat that question?
MR. DECOSTE: We're talking about if it's her position. Right. She hasn't been contacted. She isn't being harassed. It's not her position to call the FBI because somebody else is being harassed, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I disagree.
MR. DECOSTE: Yesterday, the government — Government's 138 — they played Call D.
MR. DECOSTE: And that was the first call post-bump between Charlie and Katherine.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, correct me if I'm wrong, there's three prior calls to that between Charlie and Donna.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Charlie never said to Katherine, don't talk in the apartment.
PATRICK SANFORD: No, he did not.
MR. DECOSTE: But he did say it to Donna.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Post-bump, the first thing Charlie says is, don't talk in the apartment.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's not the first thing he said, no.
MR. DECOSTE: It's one of the things that he says in those calls, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: It is one of the things, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You believe that you could say something that could get both of us in trouble.
MR. DECOSTE: It doesn't say that in the call, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Moving forward now, do you have your spreadsheet up there?
PATRICK SANFORD: Of the calls?
MR. DECOSTE: It's fine if you do.
MR. DECOSTE: The calls? Yeah.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: We next go to Call E.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: Still in Government's 130, for the record. And now it's Call E, April 19, 2016. And again, I'm not going to play it again for this jury. We went through all that yesterday. Charlie says to Katherine, if it involves you, I'll keep you in the loop, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Then we move forward to Dolce Vita, April 20th, 2016, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: There's a meeting. It's a public restaurant, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: There's people there. There's a couple people there?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: In fact, one of your agents was able to walk up and sit down a couple tables away. There's servers in there. There's people around working at the establishment.
PATRICK SANFORD: There are.
MR. DECOSTE: Much different scenario. Much different setting. Much different setting than the meeting that he had with his mother, Donna, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That particular point is a little bit different.
MR. DECOSTE: Do we need to pull up the picture?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, I don't remember the meeting with Donna.
MR. DECOSTE: You know the picture that we're talking about, where Charlie and Donna are up by the water, at a picnic table, completely away from everybody else?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Much different setting, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Different setting, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Moving forward now to Call K, still in Government's 138.
MR. DECOSTE: Sigfredo Garcia says to Katherine Magbanua, "The less you know," right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: I believe that you remember that.
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe that's correct, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: So at this point you believe the information has gone from Donna Adelson to Charlie Adelson to Katherine to Sigfredo Garcia, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: So Sigfredo Garcia now has the information. He knows the information, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: What information are you referring to?
MR. DECOSTE: Well, the bump.
PATRICK SANFORD: The bump, correct. Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: It's made its way around to him.
MR. DECOSTE: Correct. And from his statement, "the less you know," that would indicate that he knows something, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Or the less you know in the future, too. It could mean either way.
MR. DECOSTE: You agreed to look at this objectively, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right. That's what I'm doing.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's look at it objectively.
MR. DECOSTE: There's something that he won't let her know, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, he also sounds very angry in that phone call, doesn't he?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: At one point in time, he says, you know, somebody can soothe you.
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't remember that.
MR. DECOSTE: You agree with me, though, that he seemed angry.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: But you don't know why he was angry.
PATRICK SANFORD: Angry because of everything that's going on that's seen by him.
MR. ZANGENEH: Objection, Judge. Calls for speculation.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
MR. DECOSTE: Or maybe it was a situation that he was upset that Charlie Adelson was again contacting Katherine.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Objection. Argumentative.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
PATRICK SANFORD: It's possible.
MR. DECOSTE: Charlie Adelson and Donna Adelson.
MR. DECOSTE: You would agree with me that Charlie Adelson increasingly is more confident that it's law enforcement.
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't agree with that statement.
MR. DECOSTE: Have you listened to call 1557?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I have.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's go to that part.
MR. DECOSTE: Agent, we're going to pause right now, because that break reminded me of something that I need to go back to.
MR. DECOSTE: I'm going to go back to the cash deposits, working in the nightclubs, okay?
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: I want to give you a reference. I want to be fair here.
MR. DECOSTE: So during your investigation, at some point you received Charlie Adelson's iCloud data, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I did not receive it, and I believe it was later in the investigation when we received it.
MR. DECOSTE: Eventually you get it and review it, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I reviewed some of it, not all of it.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, when you say some of it, you're saying that you haven't gone through the 300,000 events that are in his iCloud data.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct. I did not. Somebody else did it.
MR. DECOSTE: So you don't know if there are text messages in there talking about Katherine quitting her job, working at a nightclub in April of 2015. You don't know that.
PATRICK SANFORD: I haven't seen that text. I've seen a lot of them, but I don't remember that text.
MR. DECOSTE: But again, you haven't gone through every single one.
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: It's a lot, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: It is.
MR. DECOSTE: But again, with this evidence of cash potentially coming from Sigfredo Garcia, coming from the nightclubs, you still maintain, well, it's still off-the-books cash. It came from the murder, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: We weren't able to trace that cash back to anything, especially off of her tax returns. It was not there.
MR. DECOSTE: That's correct.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Jury, disregard Mr. DeCoste's comment.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's go to call up. You have your spreadsheet?
PATRICK SANFORD: I do.
MR. DECOSTE: That's April 25th, 2016. Charlie Adelson wants to meet with Katherine Magbanua at the Icon.
MR. DECOSTE: Remember that from yesterday?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You would agree with me that in that call, in your lay opinion, Charlie Adelson sounds worried.
MR. DECOSTE: "We've got to meet. We've got to meet," right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Katherine Magbanua, on the other hand, is reluctant all the way down there.
MR. DECOSTE: Not worried.
PATRICK SANFORD: Not worried? Is that a question?
MR. DECOSTE: Yes.
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe she was worried, because she was asking if he could talk on WhatsApp in that particular call.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, at this point in time — correct me if I'm wrong — there's already a bunch of media following the death of Dan Markel, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: At this exact point? Yes, I disagree. There was media out there a year prior, after it happened.
MR. DECOSTE: Speculation. Sorry to cut you off.
MR. DECOSTE: Speculation that the Adelsons were involved, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right. Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's go now to Call AA, from April 27th. April 27th, 2016.
MR. DECOSTE: There's a call in between Charlie and Donna. You remember that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, at this point, Charlie sounds confident, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't remember how he sounded, but okay.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's go now to Call BB, and we'll go with a quote, because I don't want your opinion here on what was meant. Instead, we'll go with what was said — that Charlie says to Donna that he's not worried, that he knows who it is.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: That was said, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Starting to believe that it's law enforcement.
PATRICK SANFORD: I disagree.
PATRICK SANFORD: I can explain if you want.
MR. DECOSTE: Go now to call DD.
MR. DECOSTE: Charles, in that call at the beginning of it, in the first 30 seconds, says that there was a guy looking for Harvey, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sorry, repeat that? He said what?
MR. DECOSTE: Charles, in the beginning of the phone call — now we're on DD — do you have your spreadsheet?
PATRICK SANFORD: I have my spreadsheet, sure.
MR. DECOSTE: All right. Now, at the beginning of that call, he says a guy called the Adelson Institute looking for Harvey.
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't recall that.
MR. DECOSTE: You would agree with me that within that call Charles says to Katherine, find out who the fuck it is?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: To his mother, he knows who it is.
MR. DECOSTE: Find out who it is.
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm confused. Repeat that.
MR. DECOSTE: The — you have a call the same day, April 28, 2016. Charles is speaking to Donna in call BB, and he says, I know who it is, right? He tells his mother that he knows who it is.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: And then that same day, in call DD, he's saying to Katherine, quote, find out who the fuck it is.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay, sure.
MR. DECOSTE: That Katherine was involved was wrong, and he immediately knew — immediately knew.
PATRICK SANFORD: No, he did not. He was trying to soothe his mother's fears by telling her everything was okay. Every time he talked to her, he tried to just calm her down, and then he turned around with a real panic after that. That's what the evidence showed.
MR. DECOSTE: Well, he doesn't say that in a phone call, saying, hey, I'm just trying to soothe my mother. He doesn't say that, does he?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, but everything around him supports it.
MR. DECOSTE: But again, that's your opinion. You believe that's what he's doing, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's what the evidence showed.
MR. DECOSTE: — saying. Go to some more statements that were made in call DD. Katherine in that phone call is frustrated, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: She says, quote, I'm trying to —
PATRICK SANFORD: Sorry, DD? I thought you said BB.
MR. DECOSTE: Boston accent. Sorry, Judge.
MR. DECOSTE: Katherine says, quote, I'm trying to get whoever is threatening your family and helping you guys out. She says that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: She doesn't say us — helping us out — right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right.
MR. DECOSTE: She's trying to separate herself. So the undercover says to Donna, but he uses that language, helping you guys out, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: Katherine is referring to it, saying, I'm trying — and she's arguing with Charles Adelson and saying whoever it is that's threatening your family and helping you guys out. Not, this guy's on to us for a murder. Helping us out, right? She also says that someone is harassing you guys, referring to the Adelson family, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, she does.
MR. DECOSTE: And using her name.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: But not harassing us. Not harassing me, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You still believe, as other people were being hurt.
MR. DECOSTE: Who talked about calling the FBI? The one person?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yep. Charlie did, Mom did, and Katie did.
MR. DECOSTE: Katherine said. You would agree with me that when Charles and Donna are talking about it, it seems staged, right?
JUDGE HANKINSON: He's asked his opinion. You can answer, like that. Overruled.
MR. DECOSTE: Would you run — would you run — Katherine, disregard. Call DD, quote, I'm about to go to the FBI. Katherine said that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, again, it wasn't her family getting harassed, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: It was the Adelson family getting harassed.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, in that same call, Charles is reluctant to call the phone number for the undercover, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: He wants Katherine to call.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, that's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Whether it's tied to a gang or whether it's the FBI, that would mean that Katherine would then have information that could implicate Charles Adelson, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Possibly, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: It would be massively risky to say, Katherine, I want you almost as representative of this, to go in there and talk to these people, knowing that his butt's on the line.
PATRICK SANFORD: What's the question, sorry?
MR. DECOSTE: That Katherine could mess up and say something wrong, could implicate him in some way, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm not sure the question.
MR. DECOSTE: All right, let's back up and I'll go over it, and this is fine. Let me know if it's confusing.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Charles was reluctant to call himself.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, the reluctance — that could be because he doesn't know whether it's the government or not.
PATRICK SANFORD: There's a lot of reason to be reluctant.
MR. DECOSTE: But that's one of them.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: If you were to contact directly over to Sigfredo Garcia or Luis Rivera, one of them may already be working with the government, wearing a wire, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: It's got to maintain that distance. What we're talking about is the fact that he wanted Katherine to call. Okay, Katherine, you make that phone call. Okay. Now, your belief is that Katherine was involved in a conspiracy, would have been involved in the murder with him, right? Meaning that she would have knowledge —
PATRICK SANFORD: That's what the evidence shows, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: — of his involvement. She would have knowledge of his involvement.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: So meaning when she picks up that phone and makes that phone call, she — she could say something, do something that could affect him.
PATRICK SANFORD: Potentially. Maybe it's the alternative.
MR. DECOSTE: No risk, because she knew nothing, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I disagree.
MR. DECOSTE: This continues into the next phone calls on April 28th, where Charles is saying things — and again, quote, call the fucking number I gave you the other day. And where Katherine says, you call yourself.
MR. DECOSTE: Back at Government's 138, Judge, it's call JJ, where Katherine Magbanua says to Sigfredo Garcia, quote, putting my name — they're putting my name in this. She says that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And again, these are secretive recordings.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: She doesn't say, they're on to us, they know. She doesn't say that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: She says, they're putting my name in this.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, that's what she said.
MR. DECOSTE: Now I want to call MM. Katherine Magbanua to Charles Adelson, quote, harass you people, right? She says that again?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Not harassing us — harassing you people.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, but again, it's the government's belief that's part of it.
MR. DECOSTE: I'm going to go now to call PP, Government's 138.
MR. DECOSTE: PP. And we heard that phone call yesterday, you remember that, right? It's a long phone call.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: About a 25-minute phone call.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And at one point in the phone call, they referenced something that you knew about already — a fight in between Sigfredo Garcia and Charles Adelson.
MR. DECOSTE: Confrontation. You remember that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: We did not know that at the time, no.
MR. DECOSTE: Well, Yindra Velazquez told you about a confrontation.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
MR. DECOSTE: Yindra Velazquez.
MR. DECOSTE: When did you meet with Yindra Velazquez, do you remember?
PATRICK SANFORD: Well after this.
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't remember the date of it, but it was well after this. We didn't know at the time of the call about it. We learned about it later.
MR. DECOSTE: Well, we're talking about it now.
MR. DECOSTE: Right. But at some point during the investigation you meet with Yindra Velazquez.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Yes, I'll sustain the objection.
MR. DECOSTE: During the course of your investigation — Yes, Your Honor, I can tie it together with this next part.
JUDGE HANKINSON: He's answered the question.
MR. DECOSTE: You know, in the call that we heard yesterday, there was reference to that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't recall the exact reference.
MR. DECOSTE: At the 22-minute mark they talk about a situation where they had jet skis and how he didn't know the Lexus could drive that fast, right?
MR. DECOSTE: Did you not tie that together, that that was —
PATRICK SANFORD: It could possibly be. It could possibly be something else.
MR. DECOSTE: During your investigation, you looked at the call activity detail, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And there was something that happened on July 1st of 2014, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: There were a lot of phone calls from Katherine Magbanua to Sigfredo Garcia.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Tons of them.
MR. DECOSTE: And then there's this call from Sigfredo Garcia to Charlie Adelson.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You've never been able to explain it?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: It's your belief that it was soothing the mother, but you would agree with me that it goes increasingly soothing, saying, positive law enforcement, right?
MR. DECOSTE: He never called law enforcement, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I assume we're talking Charlie Adelson?
MR. DECOSTE: Correct.
PATRICK SANFORD: Charlie Adelson never called law enforcement, correct.
MR. DECOSTE: The money was never paid. The money was never paid, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Paid to the undercover? No.
MR. DECOSTE: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's go back to the theory here.
MR. DECOSTE: Charlie Adelson is, as you say, soothing his mother, saying, telling Katherine Magbanua to find out who it is.
MR. DECOSTE: You never hear Katherine Magbanua say to Charlie Adelson...
PATRICK SANFORD: Who told Charlie Adelson what?
MR. DECOSTE: That it was law enforcement.
PATRICK SANFORD: I still don't believe that he thought it was law enforcement.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's go a step further.
MR. DECOSTE: Luis Rivera and Sigfredo Garcia.
MR. DECOSTE: Federal inmates have what's called CorrLinks. You know about that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: What, CorrLinks?
MR. DECOSTE: Yeah, the ability to email.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: In fact, when you met with Luis Rivera, you actually gave him your card and said, hey, email me. You remember that? You know that they have the ability to be able to email, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: During your investigation, have you reviewed the emails, specifically around 5/11/2016, in reference to communications between Luis Rivera and Sigfredo Garcia?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: At some point, Tom becomes almost positive it's law enforcement. He says that to his mother.
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't think he says law enforcement in general.
MR. DECOSTE: But he's, to a very high degree, he's positive.
MR. DECOSTE: And they're relieved.
PATRICK SANFORD: He's positive he knows what it is.
MR. DECOSTE: And then days later, in one of the calls that we heard, he then tells Katherine, you know, it's what I thought it was.
MR. DECOSTE: You can't say, sitting here, not knowing WhatsApp, FaceTime, that there was not a line of communication set up between either Charlie Adelson and Sigfredo Garcia, or Charlie Adelson and Luis Rivera, can you?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Direct line?
MR. DECOSTE: And that Charlie Adelson was just using Katherine to find out more information of what was going on with the bump, because you know what? She's expendable. He can use her without any risk to himself.
PATRICK SANFORD: I totally disagree.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's talk about Charlie Adelson. You've listened to a lot of the wiretaps, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Within those wiretaps, there's talk of falsifying medical records, right? There's insinuating circumstances, correct? Specifically, he says he wants to rewrite a chart, changing what type of anesthesia was used. His conversation about guns — you remember that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: That he has fully automatic machine guns.
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't recall that.
MR. DECOSTE: His talk about steroids.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Objection, relevance, Your Honor.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Sustained.
MR. DECOSTE: Statement against penal interest, Your Honor.
MR. DECOSTE: If it's a hearsay objection, statement against penal interest.
JUDGE HANKINSON: It's a relevance objection.
MR. DECOSTE: I can tie it up with a few questions, Your Honor.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I've sustained the objection. Move on, Mr. DeCoste.
MR. DECOSTE: We did get the answer. The steroids.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You don't know where he was buying those steroids from, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: It appeared to be some friends of his.
MR. DECOSTE: Well, he wasn't. Have you arrested any of them?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Would that be because you don't know who he was actually getting it from?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: No, you don't know, or you do know?
PATRICK SANFORD: I do not know exactly who he got it from.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, he was buying these drugs without the use of Katherine Magbanua, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: He has the ability to commit crimes without Katherine Magbanua, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Having a fully automatic machine gun is illegal, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: It depends. You can't go fully automatic — yeah, it depends if you have a license or not, things like that.
MR. DECOSTE: Did you investigate if he has a license?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: So you can't say whether Charlie Adelson was buying drugs from the boss gang member in South Florida, can you?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You can't say that he wasn't?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, there was no communication with any of the bosses or any of the gang members down in South Florida.
MR. DECOSTE: Agent, you've been me that sometimes people...
PATRICK SANFORD: Sometimes, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Before the age of cell phones, there was crime, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: The mob for years was able to communicate through an intricate network.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You see it in movies with pay phones and stuff like that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: That they're trying to operate off the grid.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: So for your theory, we have to assume that it did all take place over cell phones. He's talking about buying steroids over the cell phone with people, but he doesn't talk about where he got it from.
PATRICK SANFORD: He might be talking to the supplier — what it sounded like.
MR. DECOSTE: Or he may have gotten it from one of the many Latin Kings, right?
MR. DECOSTE: You don't know.
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know.
MR. DECOSTE: If that were to have happened, he would have a direct communication in between either Sigfredo Garcia and Luis Rivera there.
MR. DECOSTE: Right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Say that again?
MR. DECOSTE: A direct line of communication without the use of Katherine Magbanua, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I disagree that he had a direct line of communication.
PATRICK SANFORD: I can't see it now.
MR. DECOSTE: You've never seen this before?
PATRICK SANFORD: I can't see what it is.
PATRICK SANFORD: Oh.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, that's the one that you showed me earlier in the trial. It was 4-25-14.
MR. DECOSTE: That I showed you?
PATRICK SANFORD: Somebody showed me. Yeah, I think it was shown to me.
MR. DECOSTE: You'd agree with me that this is a question from Katherine Magbanua, months — right?
MR. DECOSTE: Now, you're not here to interpret what this — important time, he says.
PATRICK SANFORD: Actually, he did. Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And then there's almost a joke.
MR. DECOSTE: You can't say that there wasn't communication via WhatsApp, other phones, other means, in between Charlie Adelson and Sigfredo Garcia.
PATRICK SANFORD: I can't say for a hundred percent sure, no.
MR. DECOSTE: But from this, there's a clear belief that Katherine Magbanua thought Sigfredo Garcia is going to be calling Charlie Adelson, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Um, yes. At some point I believe she thought he would have tried to call him, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And the reason is because he objected to the relationship with Charlie Adelson.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: He desperately wanted her back.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's my opinion, so.
MR. DECOSTE: You have an indication here of communication between the two of them. Come back to your theory, you have these things. It wasn't until Luis Rivera gives you his statement that the theory comes alive and you make the arrest of Katherine, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's when we got the warrant, correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Rivera flips.
PATRICK SANFORD: Luis Rivera flips. That's a question, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, he's a violent gang leader, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: He has a criminal history, yes. And he was a gang leader, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Violent gang leader.
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: You arrested him for murder, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Violent.
MR. DECOSTE: He's a gang leader. Right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You go down with a team of law enforcement.
PATRICK SANFORD: When?
MR. DECOSTE: For the arrest of Katherine.
PATRICK SANFORD: There's agents in Miami who assisted me, yes. I did not take a team with me.
MR. DECOSTE: Investigator Isom was with you?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: There were other law enforcement there?
PATRICK SANFORD: From Miami, correct.
MR. DECOSTE: All right. When I'm saying "take," I'm saying to the location where you arrested Katherine Magbanua.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, that's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You were in multiple cars.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Guns were out.
PATRICK SANFORD: They were doing surveillance on her, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Scared her so much she urinated herself?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm not aware of that.
MR. DECOSTE: You were present with Isom, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: When?
MR. DECOSTE: At the arrest.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct. Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And the reason why you guys went from up here down to South Florida was because you wanted her to cooperate.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You have this big show of force, slap the cuffs on her, and want to talk to her, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That is not the reason for a big show of force.
MR. DECOSTE: Federal Bureau of Investigation, right? Exactly. Not the Federal Bureau of Intimidation.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
JUDGE HANKINSON: The jury will disregard Mr. DeCoste's comments. I'm not going to warn you again, because we're going to start having something further than that.
MR. DECOSTE: Understood.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's talk about discovery. You know what discovery is, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: In this case you have a manifest within the FBI. And let's talk about sort of the inner workings of the FBI.
MR. DECOSTE: For each case, you have a running manifest of all the reports and all the things that are done, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: Do you agree with that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Okay. Now, the work that's done by the FBI, you then share it with the State Attorney's Office.
MR. DECOSTE: But the FBI is different than state-level police departments and is different than the State Attorney's Office in that you can choose, "We're not going to provide some things."
PATRICK SANFORD: I agree with that statement.
MR. DECOSTE: There's a video of the arrest, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Of what arrest? Which arrest are you referring to?
MR. DECOSTE: Or Sigfredo Garcia.
PATRICK SANFORD: No, there's no video of the arrest.
MR. DECOSTE: Your Honor, let's go to policy — other policy within the FBI: the recordings of interviews. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, the policy for the Federal Bureau of Investigation is that recordings need to be made if it is pertinent, if the person is in custody, or if there is approval, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That is not totally correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, what's the policy?
PATRICK SANFORD: The policy is, we are not allowed to record interviews unless we have special permission from the supervisor. And the other policy is, if somebody is in our federal custody, then we have to record that interview — if they're in federal custody.
MR. DECOSTE: So your testimony is that if somebody is in custody but not in the custody of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, that you don't have to record it.
PATRICK SANFORD: It's if they're in custody — if they're in our custody. That is the policy.
MR. DECOSTE: You would agree with me that you've met with many on this case — many inmates.
MR. DECOSTE: Just to make sure I have that correct: if they're in your custody, or if you have special approval.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, that's the policy.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, if you're not doing a recording, though, you write a report.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: That's also policy.
PATRICK SANFORD: We write reports for interviews that we do.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: I just want to make sure that I got it, and I'm not trying to be repetitive.
MR. DECOSTE: If you have special permission, or if the person is in DOJ custody, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Department of Justice custody. Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Otherwise, if you meet with somebody, you're gonna write a report.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Called a 302.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Step aside for a second.
MR. DECOSTE: Now — Now, the Tallahassee Police Department, they have their own policy, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: When you met with Dr. Heineke — remember that name?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: There was somebody from the Tallahassee Police Department there with you, and they recorded the interview.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Same thing with June Umchinda.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: On that topic, you never told Ms. Umchinda that you were recording her, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I did not.
MR. DECOSTE: Neither did Sherry Bennett.
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't believe so.
MR. DECOSTE: Caridad Herrera Cabello — you recorded that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I did not.
MR. DECOSTE: Well, the person in the room with you recorded it, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Also Francis Magbanua — that was recorded as well, too. Not by you, but it was recorded.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct. That was in the police department.
MR. DECOSTE: I believe you would agree with me that the most accurate reflection of what somebody said would be a recording, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sometimes, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Your reports aren't word for word like the court reporter here.
PATRICK SANFORD: No, they're not.
MR. DECOSTE: It's giving your version of what was said.
PATRICK SANFORD: It's my report.
MR. DECOSTE: Correct. Now, yesterday — yesterday, Mr. Zangeneh asked you a question, and you did answer it — whether you believe Luis Rivera.
MR. DECOSTE: And you said yes.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: In the times that you met with Luis Rivera, let's go with September 30th and October 4th. One is recorded, one is not.
MR. DECOSTE: Before you started, you told him, or someone in the room, you've got to tell the truth and the whole truth, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Did he ever tell you about hoods and masks?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not that I recall.
MR. DECOSTE: Did he ever tell you about a third trip to Tallahassee?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Whole truth and nothing but the truth, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Did he explain to you how that third trip was between Sigfredo Garcia and King Anthony?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: And King Anthony you know as Anthony Ortiz?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Who is now deceased?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Which, for Luis Rivera, would be convenient for him to bring up that name. Right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know what's convenient for him. No.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's go through the dates of when you met with Luis Rivera.
MR. DECOSTE: May 27, 2016 — he's incarcerated.
MR. DECOSTE: You and Investigator Isom meet with him. It's recorded.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: Is that correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That sounds correct. I don't remember the date exactly.
MR. DECOSTE: Same thing on June 21st.
PATRICK SANFORD: We went to the prison in Talton on June 21st?
MR. DECOSTE: Correct. 2016.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: Sometime in August or September, he makes the decision, I'm going to cooperate, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm not aware of the date, no.
MR. DECOSTE: Well, eventually, on September 30th of 2016, you go in there to get his statement.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: To get his proffer, as you call it.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: So that he can get a deal, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know why he was doing it, but that's between him and the State Attorney's Office.
MR. DECOSTE: He's incarcerated.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, at the time.
MR. DECOSTE: So he's in custody.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You're on the case.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: He's in custody in Jefferson County, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Right next door, county over. According of this meeting?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, we don't report problems.
MR. DECOSTE: You didn't say that a moment ago, though. You said we record if somebody's in custody, or if we have special permission, in federal custody. Well, you're on the case, right? Right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You took part in the investigation in his arrest, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: He's in state custody. It was not a federal warrant, not a federal facility.
MR. DECOSTE: I got it.
MR. DECOSTE: So yesterday you said something along the lines of, this office, the State Attorney's Office, told you not to report it?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, it was their decision.
MR. DECOSTE: You don't work for them, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: You work for the federal government.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Your policy doesn't say, well, if the Leon County State Attorney's Office says otherwise, then we, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, will act accordingly.
PATRICK SANFORD: The policy says I could not record that, because it's not in federal custody.
MR. DECOSTE: All right. But you could have gotten special permission.
PATRICK SANFORD: I could have gone back, got special permission, sure. But it was their proffer.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, after this conversation with Luis Rivera, y'all get into a van and you go around Tallahassee, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And in that van, Investigator Isom had a camera.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And that van ride was right after the meeting, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Could he use that camera to record the meeting?
PATRICK SANFORD: Could he have physically used it? Yeah. Possibly.
MR. DECOSTE: Tallahassee Police Department has their own policy on recordings, as we talked about a moment ago with all those other witnesses. They can record whenever they want.
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: So in DOJ custody, recording; special permission, recording; otherwise, report.
PATRICK SANFORD: Because Investigator Isom did.
MR. DECOSTE: That's not what your policy says, though.
PATRICK SANFORD: We don't duplicate reports.
PATRICK SANFORD: The policy is that it is documented.
PATRICK SANFORD: Investigator Isom documented it. So I would not do a separate documentation on the exact same interview.
PATRICK SANFORD: Vaguely, yes. Last name Varela.
MR. DECOSTE: He was in custody, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right.
MR. DECOSTE: In a state prison, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And on May 31st, 2016, and June 29th, 2016, you and Investigator Isom went and met with him, correct? And you have a DOJ recording of those interviews, right? The DOJ recording — a HAWK video, as they call it.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I have a recording of that.
MR. DECOSTE: At the request of the State Attorney's Office.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, if you're aware. I don't know who would testify.
MR. DECOSTE: Mr. But you don't record the meeting.
PATRICK SANFORD: I did not.
MR. DECOSTE: Or do a report.
PATRICK SANFORD: I did not report two of the meetings with shooting, only one of them. Yeah, then I did a report.
MR. DECOSTE: Can you name one inmate, in this case, through this entire investigation, besides Luis Rivera, that was not recorded?
MR. DECOSTE: Just one.
PATRICK SANFORD: I didn't record any other ones. That's the only one I recorded. I recorded none of them.
MR. DECOSTE: And it's just not being provided to us.
PATRICK SANFORD: That is incorrect.
MR. DECOSTE: You would agree with me that if there is evidence that Luis Rivera gave an inconsistent statement on 9/30 — inconsistent to his other statements — that that would undercut his credibility, which could undercut your theory.
PATRICK SANFORD: Absolutely, and I would bring that forward.
MR. DECOSTE: You want to see happen is this theory, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No. I want to see the case resolved with the truth.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's talk about cell activity, cell phone activity. And we're talking about 2014, not 2016. You know who Sergeant Corbitt is. He said it earlier in the cross, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, during the course of your work in this case, you put together some reports about the information that he was giving you about the cell phone activity, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: The work that Sergeant Corbitt has done, it was more simple. You know, this person contacted this person on that day, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You did one report on date of entry June 20th, 2016. You remember that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I do.
MR. DECOSTE: And that talked about May and June of 2014.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, that sounds right.
MR. DECOSTE: And again, it laid out someone called so-and-so, so-and-so called so-and-so, this person called that person, and then there was some — but again, very simple cell phone location information. Okay?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You also do another report dated — and I'm not going to talk about the contents of the report — but dated February 8th of 2016.
MR. DECOSTE: And that talked about — and if you have it there, feel free to reference it — and that talked about, uh, July of 2014, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Um, yes, it did.
MR. DECOSTE: This discovery was provided over to the State Attorney's Office, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And you, being a tenured investigator and having worked on these state cases before, you know that once they get this stuff, they give it over to defense counsel.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: In federal court it's a little bit different, right? A little bit more constrained.
PATRICK SANFORD: It's about generally the same.
MR. DECOSTE: But in state court, all that information is given over. Okay. So we have reports detailing activity for June and July, and these reports are written and completed before the prosecution of Luis Rivera really gets going, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: To make sure that we have the dates here: you do these reports, date of entry February 2016, June 20th, 2016, and then in September of that year, then Luis Rivera sits down with you for the meeting that we recorded.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You can't say that Luis Rivera wasn't just regurgitating the theory and the facts that you guys had, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Oh, absolutely.
MR. DECOSTE: Okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yeah, he wasn't regurgitating that. He was coming out of his memory.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's go. Go to Anthony Ortiz.
MR. DECOSTE: Never investigated him, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Investigating him how?
MR. DECOSTE: Did you ever meet with him?
MR. DECOSTE: Pull his cell phone records?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe they did.
MR. DECOSTE: Again, Luis Rivera says that King Anthony went up to tap, came up here in relation to the Markel murder.
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm not aware of that.
MR. DECOSTE: Because Luis Rivera didn't tell you, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, he didn't.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's talk about Juan Marcos Vega.
MR. DECOSTE: You're squinting.
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know who that is.
MR. DECOSTE: You remember me bringing up that name before, though, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: When?
MR. DECOSTE: In the deposition. Would it refresh your recollection to take a look at the depo?
PATRICK SANFORD: Is it in the depo or today?
MR. DECOSTE: Depo. Yes, in the depo.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: My belief is that you have no information about Juan Marcos Vega.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's true.
MR. DECOSTE: Are you aware that Juan Marcos Vega was a co-defendant on Luis Rivera's federal RICO case?
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: If you know.
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, the work on this case was a joint effort between yourself, the Leon County State Attorney's Office, and the Tallahassee Police Department, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: It wasn't something that somebody was going to run off and do one part and you were going to do another and nobody would communicate, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not that we wouldn't communicate, but we did do separate aspects of the investigation, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Do you know the saying with big organizations, one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing?
PATRICK SANFORD: I know the saying.
MR. DECOSTE: Was it like that?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: But you have no idea who Juan Marcos Vega is?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not off the top of my head, I don't.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's talk about Luis Rivera now.
MR. DECOSTE: In your many reports you have different addresses for Luis Rivera, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Different residential addresses?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Yes. One of them that you have is 1805 Normandy Drive, Apartment 3, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And you believe that to be one of his addresses?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: During your investigation of the case and Luis Rivera, did you look at his financial records?
PATRICK SANFORD: We tried to, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: His bank records? His Chase records?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Agent, I'm showing you what comes from Government's 144, 23, and 24.
MR. DECOSTE: Do you know what those are?
PATRICK SANFORD: They appear to be Chase bank records from Mr. Rivera.
MR. DECOSTE: And you know that because, again, you reviewed and investigated his financial activities?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And those fairly and accurately depict what you saw in his financial records, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so. It's been a long time since I looked at them.
MR. DECOSTE: Move in what's been pre-marked as 23 and 24. Again, it comes from Government's 144.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Yes, sir. Not under my general objections.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I admit 23 and 24 for Magbanua.
MR. DECOSTE: It's real simple. What was the address on his bank statements?
PATRICK SANFORD: Oh, I didn't look at the address, but it is Normandy Drive, 1805 Normandy Drive.
MR. DECOSTE: And this is around the June trip?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: May 22nd and June 20th. So the address of 1805 Normandy Drive, May 22nd, 2014, through June 20th, 2014.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: McFarland 24, same address?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Around the time of the homicide?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: I want to talk to you about photo lineups.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: I remember your testimony yesterday. The reason why you did it is that you want to be sure, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: That you must — quote — must be objective. Who said "must be objective"? You did. You remember that?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, I didn't.
MR. DECOSTE: Do you disagree that you must be objective?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes. Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: Okay. So you show him a photo lineup for the purpose of identifying Luis Rivera and Sigfredo Garcia, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: Luis Rivera says...
PATRICK SANFORD: No, he did not.
MR. DECOSTE: Luis Rivera gives you testimony saying, "I saw her the day before at the home on Trescott, Dan Markel's home."
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Remember that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And he says that he sees her in between nine and noon, right?
MR. DECOSTE: Says that he makes eye contact, that he's positive that's her.
PATRICK SANFORD: No, he'd apparently already seen a photo of her.
MR. DECOSTE: I'm sorry?
PATRICK SANFORD: He had already seen a photo of her.
MR. DECOSTE: During the course of your investigation, you learn of several phone numbers that belong to Luis Rivera, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, do you have your 302s in front of you?
PATRICK SANFORD: Of which 302?
MR. DECOSTE: Date of entry, February 23, 2016.
PATRICK SANFORD: What's it of? Of who?
MR. DECOSTE: Would it help you to remember taking a look at it?
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure.
MR. DECOSTE: February 23, 2016.
MR. DECOSTE: Take a look at it. Let me know if that helps. Okay. Do you have that with you?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't think I do.
MR. DECOSTE: It's just the after records.
MR. DECOSTE: You can do me a favor. Go ahead. Because I'm going to ask you questions off that — can you write down in your notes the phone numbers from the server?
PATRICK SANFORD: I need you to ask a question.
JUDGE HANKINSON: We're due for a break. We'll take ten minutes. Make a copy of the document. We'll take ten minutes.
MR. DECOSTE: Agent, we were talking about your 302 from June 23rd, 2016.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You have it in front of you, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I do now.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, during the course of your investigation, you received from the Tallahassee Police Department a response to a subpoena sent to Apple for records of Luis Rivera, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And they respond back with two phone numbers.
MR. DECOSTE: They respond back with two phone numbers, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, you put that in your report.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And the source of the information that's in your report were the documents that were sent and the data that was sent from Apple, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe it was the documents, the subscriber information.
MR. DECOSTE: You know what that is, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yeah, I believe that's the records they sent in response.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, you know that those are the records that they sent in response because you received it from Investigator Isom, you reviewed it, you used it to put together your report, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And you know that it applies to Luis Rivera because of the documentation and what was given to you along with it, the subpoena and whatnot, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And that printout fairly and accurately depicts what one would see online with what you used to put together your report, right? Let me rephrase that — a little jumbled.
MR. DECOSTE: That printout looks the same as what it would look like if you pulled it up on a computer, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Move in what's been pre-marked as Magbanua 25.
MR. DECOSTE: Not introduced for the truth of the matter, Your Honor.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Sustained. Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: Investigator, in your report, for the phone numbers that you have for Luis Rivera, you do not have the phone number 305-934-6615, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: It's not on my report.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, there is a phone number, but it's one digit different, right?
MR. DECOSTE: Agent — During your investigation, the phone number that you find out belonging to Luis Rivera is 305-935-6615, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Not 305-934-6615, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't recall.
MR. DECOSTE: Is the phone number with 934 in your report? It's — A murder weapon, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You've stopped searching for it, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: There were a few attempts made.
MR. DECOSTE: Right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yeah, a couple of extensive attempts, high-altitude plane for South Florida.
MR. DECOSTE: But just a few attempts to find the murder weapon up here, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I spent days looking for it.
MR. DECOSTE: Yes. It was never found?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, the only information that you had, the only person to help you find it, was Luis Rivera, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, you talked about yesterday about the route that he took you on, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: He also drew you a picture too, right? We went on a route that the cell site data showed us they went on. You had no evidence that it was actually dumped in a body of water, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: For all you know, it's in a slab of concrete in Miami.
PATRICK SANFORD: Could be.
MR. DECOSTE: The only thing that you had to go on was Luis Rivera saying, we dumped it on the trip back, and then you cross-referenced it with the route that they took with their cell phones, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: That — That looks like it's... You smile as you're looking at it.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: It's not a good drawing, is it?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: It's almost laughable.
PATRICK SANFORD: It's opinion. Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Cruz Rivera did not want you...
PATRICK SANFORD: Not in my opinion. It's not what happened.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's talk about that.
MR. DECOSTE: You're also a federal agent.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: There's a potential on a case like this that it could become a federal case, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Now, you would agree with me that — and I'm going to get into the legalese here — that the federal government can prosecute a case that's already been prosecuted in state court, the same thing. They're considered separate sovereigns.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's my understanding, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: You know, in many of your federal investigations, in many ways that you end up getting jurisdiction to prosecute a case is on interstate commerce, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: So what would be, like, an armed robbery case — a Hobbs Act robbery, right? You know what a Hobbs Act robbery is, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes. What's the question?
MR. DECOSTE: If there is a gun that's used in that, and that gun can be tied to interstate commerce — if the gun was produced in Cleveland, that's interstate commerce — you can prosecute in federal court.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Meaning Luis Rivera, if the gun were found and it could be tied to interstate commerce, could be prosecuted in federal court, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Possibly, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Most gun manufacturers are outside of the state of Florida.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: And again, this is a guy that, when he's cooperating, he's already a federal inmate.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: With a lot of guys that have had cases dealing with interstate commerce, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Who is Cecilia Magbanua?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe that's Ms. Magbanua's mother.
MR. DECOSTE: Now we're going to go back to the topic of money into Katherine Magbanua's account.
MR. DECOSTE: During your investigation, you see that there are monies being transferred to Katherine at the time in her 20s from her mother giving her money, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: You never interviewed Cecilia Magbanua, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: She's located down in South Florida, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: She was.
MR. DECOSTE: You say "was" because during this prosecution, she passed away.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Judge, objection. Relevance.
JUDGE HANKINSON: It's already been asked and answered. Your objection is not timely.
MR. DECOSTE: She passed away during this process.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I sustained the objection at this point.
MR. DECOSTE: Never interviewed her.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's talk about evidence of innocence — of Katherine's innocence.
MR. DECOSTE: Sigfredo Garcia and Luis Rivera are arrested.
MR. DECOSTE: You would agree with me that there was lots of media?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Katherine didn't flee.
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe she did.
MR. DECOSTE: Wouldn't "flee" mean she's gone?
PATRICK SANFORD: Flee means she left her apartment that we had a camera on, and she stopped using her cell phone and would not respond to us. We tried to contact her and she wouldn't respond.
MR. DECOSTE: You're talking about the one time that — not yourself, but that two men went and knocked on her door and didn't identify themselves as law enforcement. That's the time you're talking about, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: With their badges showing, and she knew they were law enforcement.
MR. DECOSTE: You don't know if she knew that.
PATRICK SANFORD: She said it on the phone.
MR. DECOSTE: You can't say that she knew why they were there, right?
MR. DECOSTE: You can't say that — whether it was for Sigfredo Garcia, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right.
MR. DECOSTE: Right. You can't say that.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yeah.
MR. DECOSTE: And — And you can't say that the reason why she moved out of her apartment is because now the person that she was sharing it with has been arrested by you and she can't pay for it.
PATRICK SANFORD: This happened before she was arrested. This happened after I spoke to Mr. Garcia, then they left the apartment.
MR. DECOSTE: Let me give you the reference points again. Sigfredo Garcia and Luis Rivera are arrested, right? There's lots of media.
MR. DECOSTE: During that time, she moves out of the apartment, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, that's not correct.
MR. DECOSTE: But wasn't that the reason why you said she fled?
PATRICK SANFORD: She moved out of the apartment before he was arrested.
MR. DECOSTE: At some point in between May of 2016 and her arrest in October, the actual probable cause affidavits — meaning the paperwork that explains everything, signed by a judge to arrest somebody — that's released in the media. You know about that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I heard about it, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Didn't flee.
MR. DECOSTE: Right. What's your definition of "flee"?
PATRICK SANFORD: Getting on a plane and leaving the country.
MR. DECOSTE: She didn't do that. She didn't leave the country.
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Didn't leave the state.
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Didn't leave the county of Miami-Dade.
PATRICK SANFORD: Uh, disagree with that. She went to Broward, which is the next county over.
MR. DECOSTE: Yes. Sort of like going from here to Jefferson?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: So that's your definition. She went to hide out?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Down the street.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, she did.
MR. DECOSTE: Before her arrest, there was also a 20/20 special. You know about that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I've heard about it.
MR. DECOSTE: This prosecutor, Ms. Cappleman — she appeared on it.
MR. DECOSTE: Ms. Cappleman appeared on it, was interviewed, and talked about the case. You remember that, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I didn't see the episode, but I heard about it.
MR. DECOSTE: And then it talked about Katherine Magbanua being involved in it, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know what it said.
MR. DECOSTE: Let's sum up the theory here.
MR. DECOSTE: And, Your Honor, just to let you know, it's more than a recap.
JUDGE HANKINSON: But that's what you're about to do, Mr. DeCoste.
MR. DECOSTE: Not a recap. Just to let you know that I think this time it will be about five minutes.
JUDGE HANKINSON: We're still not going to just go back and summarize what you've already asked.
JUDGE HANKINSON: If you have a new question, ask a new question.
MR. DECOSTE: Just giving Your Honor a time reference.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I'm not worried about your timeline.
MR. DECOSTE: Okay, then we'll keep it moving. It's a new question that we've not covered.
MR. DECOSTE: During the course of your investigation, you learned that Katherine Magbanua and Charlie Adelson take a trip to Key West, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: And you learned during that investigation that it was considered by Charlie to be the goodbye tour.
PATRICK SANFORD: No, I didn't learn that.
MR. DECOSTE: You would agree with me that during the time of June and July of 2014, that Charlie Adelson and Katherine Magbanua break up?
PATRICK SANFORD: We had indications of that. We weren't positive, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Before the homicide?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: This wasn't all agreement to Charles Adelson and Sigfredo Garcia?
JUDGE HANKINSON: That's a summary question. That's not an appropriate question. Do you have a new question, Mr. DeCoste?
MR. DECOSTE: I'll ask you a hypothetical.
MR. DECOSTE: Charlie Adelson is communicating with Sigfredo Garcia.
MR. DECOSTE: One wants his brother-in-law murdered. The other one wants the girl that he loves back. The exchange is hundred thousand dollars and a murder and in exchange I'll break up with a girlfriend. What evidence do you have that says that that didn't happen?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Objection.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Sustained.
MR. DECOSTE: And again, the breakup happened right when the murder happened, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't know that.
MR. DECOSTE: One second, Your Honor.
MR. DECOSTE: Nothing further, Judge.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Redirect.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: You were asked about this check from Club Fae?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Were you aware that this check bounced out of Ms. Magbanua's account?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, it was not.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And this check is for the amount of nine hundred and eighty-five dollars and sixty-two cents, correct? We heard testimony in this case that Ms. Magbanua worked about two nights a week at the clubs. How many nights would that be for the period of this — all right, if she was working for a month, isn't that what the memo line indicates?
MR. DECOSTE: Objection. Speculation.
MR. DECOSTE: Does the memo line indicate she was just being paid for about a month — $985 for the month of April?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And if she worked eight nights during the month of April, that would be about $123 a night, correct?
MR. DECOSTE: Objection. Speculation as to how many nights she worked in each given month.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: If she worked eight nights in the month of April, that would be about $123 a night, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And apparently Club Fae, since the memo indicates that this is a burden—
MR. DECOSTE: Objection. Leading, and counsel testifying.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Since the memo line indicates that this $985.62 is paid to Katherine Magbanua for tips, then Club Fae apparently does not pay for tips in cash.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Objection — calls for speculation.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And is there anything about this check that accounts for the spike in cash income around the time of the homicide as shown in State's exhibit 118?
MR. DECOSTE: Objection. Personal knowledge, calls for narrative and speculation.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Can that check explain the spike?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, it cannot.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: You were asked about, basically, do you have any evidence — that you have any evidence indicating that Ms. Magbanua was not employed at the Adelson Institute. Do you remember those questions?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And you mentioned a couple of things, but the employees there did not know what it was that she did there, correct?
MR. DECOSTE: Objection — personal knowledge and hearsay.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Judge, the witness was asked what evidence he had.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Well, let's clarify what his knowledge is. I'll overrule the objection, but there needs to be a foundation. Let's not lead your own witness, please.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Did you go into the Adelson Institute?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I did.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Did you inquire of the employees there what it was that Ms. Magbanua did there?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I did.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And were those employees Ms. Lebredo and Erika Johnson?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, they were.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And were those witnesses able to give you any explanation as to what, if anything, Ms. Magbanua did for that business?
MR. DECOSTE: Objection. Calls for hearsay.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Were Ms. Lebredo and Ms. Johnson able to shed any light as to what, if anything, it is that Ms. Magbanua did for the Adelson Institute?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, they were not.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And you received or reviewed some employment records from the Adelson Institute as well?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I did.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: The exhibit that's in evidence here today?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And did that exhibit shed any light on what it was that Ms. Magbanua was doing for the Adelson Institute?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, it did not.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: You were shown some texts. I'll show you what I've marked as State's Exhibit 185.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Okay, everyone come to the sidebar.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Please take a moment to review State's Exhibit 185 and advise if you recognize it.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, I do recognize it.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Is that a text thread from Mr. Adelson's iCloud?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, it is.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And is it a fair and accurate depiction of the text thread?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, it is.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And who is the conversation between?
PATRICK SANFORD: Between Charlie Adelson and Katherine Magbanua.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: On what date?
PATRICK SANFORD: The date is 11-6-2014.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Judge, at this time I'd ask to introduce into evidence State's 185.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Subject to my prior ruling, it'll be admitted.
MR. DECOSTE: The defense asks for a recross on that one exhibit.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I'm going to hear what the discussion is before I rule on that.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: May I publish?
JUDGE HANKINSON: You may.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: If you could just read us the text text thread and tell us who's saying what.
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm sorry, you want me to read it?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Yes, please.
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm sorry. Just the body?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Yes, and tell us who's saying what.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay. From Charlie Adelson: "Put that you work in the office, not at home." Then a response from Ms. Magbanua: "No shit, Sherlock." Then this again says "lol," and she says again, "I don't know pay period dates. Can you call me? I'm driving." Mr. Adelson responds, "Our pay period is Monday through Monday."
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: You were asked about the wire calls, and particularly in reference to the bump, you were asked basically questions about the flyer and how do we know that there was really $5,000 written on the flyer, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And did you say that the wire calls contain the amount five thousand dollars?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, there was some more conversation about five thousand.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And is that an amount that was reported in those first three calls between Donna Adelson and Charlie Adelson?
PATRICK SANFORD: Between Donna and Charlie — I don't recall exactly.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay, those three or not. All right. You were asked about the issue of whether — of the legitimacy of Mr. Charlie Adelson contacting Katherine Magbanua after the bump?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. So there were a lot of questions about her being his ex-girlfriend, and isn't it natural that he would have contacted Katherine Magbanua because she was his ex-girlfriend?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And isn't it true that on the calls, Mr. Adelson indicates he's got 87 ex-girlfriends?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Objection. Facts not in evidence.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And that's in call D that has been introduced into evidence. Would you agree with that?
PATRICK SANFORD: I agree.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay.
PATRICK SANFORD: And I do recall the earlier question also.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And so we watched the bump video, and the undercover does say "Katie." You were asked about "Katherine," but it's actually "Katie," correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: That the undercover says to Mrs. Adelson.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Does Mrs. Adelson, in any of those calls that preceded — okay, I want to know about the calls between Donna Adelson and Charlie Adelson before Charlie Adelson calls Katherine Magbanua. You understand what time period I'm asking about?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, three calls.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: During those calls, does Mrs. Adelson tell Charlie Adelson that the undercover said "Katie"?
MR. DECOSTE: Objection. Hearsay. Court's prior ruling.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: You understand the question?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes. I'm sorry.
PATRICK SANFORD: No, it's fine. She does not say "Katie." She never says the name Katie.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: So when Charlie Adelson first contacts Katherine Magbanua, all he knows is that the undercover mentioned an ex-girlfriend, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, that's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right, Judge, at this time I would ask to move into evidence the calls listed as A, B, and C.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I'm not going to revisit that at this point in time.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: How many of the 87 ex-girlfriends did Mr. Adelson contact after talking to his mother about the bump?
PATRICK SANFORD: Only one.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And who was that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Katherine Magbanua.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: You were asked about whether there's any evidence of contact between Charlie Adelson and Sigfredo Garcia. Do you recall that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And we do have the one unanswered call from Sigfredo Garcia to Harvey Adelson on July 1, 2014, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. That's not the same thing as Charlie Adelson, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. And it was suggested that that call could have had something to do with this interaction about the jet ski. Do you remember being asked about that?
PATRICK SANFORD: I do.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And if the call — if the call to Charlie — strike that. If the call from Sigfredo Garcia to Harvey Adelson on July 1st had to do with Charlie Adelson trying to confront — strike, gotta start over. Okay, if the call on July 1st, 2014, from Sigfredo Garcia to Harvey Adelson — the one that was the length that we got from the tower — if that call was, as has been suggested, Sigfredo Garcia angry about the relationship between Charlie and Katie, trying to confront Charlie Adelson, wouldn't that indicate that Sigfredo Garcia did not have contact with Charlie Adelson prior to that?
MR. DECOSTE: Objection. Speculation.
MR. ZANGENEH: I join on that objection.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I think it calls for speculation. I'll sustain the objection.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: But the first murder trip occurred prior to that July 1 call. Happened in June, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And the murder didn't happen that trip.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's true.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: But whoever hired these guys to go kill Dan Markel did it before July 1st.
PATRICK SANFORD: Exactly.
MR. DECOSTE: Objection. Still speculation.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Do you have any evidence, through the entire investigation, of any communication between Charlie Adelson and any Latin King?
PATRICK SANFORD: None.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: In your experience, a drug buyer and seller relationship — does that usually have some type of phone communication associated with it?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And we didn't see any such communication between Charlie and any Latin King drug seller?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct. None was.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Was there anything unusual about the procedure that was used to arrest Katherine Magbanua?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, absolutely not.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Was it a typical show of force for the arrest of a suspect?
MR. DECOSTE: Objection. Motion in limine.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Sidebar.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Was the show of force employed in the arrest of Ms. Magbanua a typical show of force for the arrest of a murder suspect?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And you were asked about your opinion as to whether or not Charlie Adelson believed that the undercover in the bump was a law enforcement officer. Do you remember that?
PATRICK SANFORD: I do.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. And you said no — your belief was that he was just trying to say to his mother that it wasn't going to be a problem, correct? Okay. And does Call I on State's Exhibit 138 illustrate your belief?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Judge, at this time I'd ask to move in and publish Call I of State's 138.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Is there still objection I?
MR. DECOSTE: Absolutely, Your Honor.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: You were asked about Luis Rivera's arrest around our operative time frame, so June and July of 2014. Remember that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And you were shown a Chase account that lists the Normandy address as his address. You recall that?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Did Luis Rivera tell you where he was staying at the time of the arrest? Did Luis Rivera tell you where he was staying around the time of the two murder trips?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And where was that?
PATRICK SANFORD: That was his girlfriend's apartment, Jessica Rodriguez and it was on 135th.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And Jessica — did we also look at Luis Rivera's phone location information to indicate that he was physically laying his head at Jessica Rodriguez's residence?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, we did.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And on September 17, 2015, did law enforcement respond to that address?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, they did.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And what was that in reference to?
PATRICK SANFORD: Domestic.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Domestic between who?
PATRICK SANFORD: Mr. Rivera and Jessica Rodriguez.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. So both — the two of them were there on 9-17 of '15.
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: You were asked about your efforts to look for the gun, and it was suggested that maybe you should have used a high-altitude plane to look for the gun. Is that something that you think might have been helpful?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, not at all.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. But you did go to the area where Mr. Rivera indicated the gun may be, and do your best efforts to look for the gun in that location?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, we did.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Whether or not the gun was recovered, could Luis Rivera have been prosecuted in federal court?
MR. DECOSTE: Objection. Personal knowledge.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm sorry?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: I mean, he could have been prosecuted for murder in federal court, couldn't he?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Whether or not he had a gun?
PATRICK SANFORD: Absolutely.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: No further questions.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I'll recross some limited, State's Exhibit 185.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Anything, Mr. DeCoste?
MR. DECOSTE: He said "put that you work in the office, not at home," right?
PATRICK SANFORD: Right.
MR. DECOSTE: Not "put that you work in the office"?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Objection. Confusing.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I think the question's been asked and answered. Do you have another question, Mr. DeCoste?
MR. DECOSTE: Your Honor, I actually haven't gotten an answer to this one.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I thought he said it said "put that you work in the office, not at home." Did you not answer that?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's what it says. Yes.
JUDGE HANKINSON: All right, we've got an answer. Move on, Mr. DeCoste.
MR. DECOSTE: This answer, "put that you work in the office," would indicate that it was —
JUDGE HANKINSON: We're not going to speculate. You know what it meant. Move on. Move on, Mr. DeCoste.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Further?
JUDGE HANKINSON: Any further, Ms. Cappleman?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: No, Your Honor.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Ready for lunch?
JUDGE HANKINSON: Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Questions.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Go sidebar.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Did you look at any tax information as to Ms. Magbanua? In other words, 1040s on Ms. Magbanua?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, sir, I did.
JUDGE HANKINSON: All right. And were there W-2s for Ms. Magbanua from the bars and nightclubs and Adelson Institute?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not that I recall about the bars. The Adelson Institute, there were some records.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Make sure you speak where they can hear you. I know I'm asking the question. It's a little awkward.
PATRICK SANFORD: Sorry.
JUDGE HANKINSON: So there were some W-2s from the Adelson Institute, but you don't recall any from the bars and nightclubs?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
JUDGE HANKINSON: And were the bars — from the nightclubs, I'm sorry — was the cash from the bars, nightclubs, or other income shown on Ms. Magbanua's 1040?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, that was not claimed.
JUDGE HANKINSON: What's that?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, that was not claimed.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Did the Adelson Institute pay unemployment tax or re-employment tax on Ms. Magbanua?
PATRICK SANFORD: From my recollection, I believe they did pay some taxes on it, I guess.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Did you look at any employment records for Mr. Garcia?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't believe I found any other than when he was working at Rapid Capital, so I did not get their employment records.
JUDGE HANKINSON: You didn't see anything from Coastal Masonry?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm sorry, we did get something from Coastal Masonry, too.
JUDGE HANKINSON: And did they report their wages?
PATRICK SANFORD: They did.
JUDGE HANKINSON: And did you attempt to match that with what went into Mr. Garcia's bank account?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, we did.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Now, did you have bank records for Mr. Garcia back in the 2014 time?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so. I believe we did.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Were there any searches made of any residences to search for the gun?
PATRICK SANFORD: No, there were not.
JUDGE HANKINSON: You were asked about the show of force in terms of arresting Ms. Magbanua. Was a similar show of force used at the arrest of Mr. Garcia?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes, it was.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I don't know whether you have ready access to this, but do you know how many times the undercover number was called?
PATRICK SANFORD: It was less than a handful.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Do you have some record of that?
PATRICK SANFORD: I might be able to refer back.
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe, from my recollection, Charlie called it once. Mr. Adelson called it once. Mr. Garcia called it one time and got the voicemail. And Mrs. Adelson called it once. I think she might have called twice.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Mrs. Adelson?
PATRICK SANFORD: Donna Adelson called it twice. She called one time and didn't reach him, and then she returned the call, I believe.
PATRICK SANFORD: So possibly a total of four. I could be mistaken on that, but around four.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Any follow-up from the state?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: When did Donna Adelson call the undercover?
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Actually, a better question would be if you could give us all of those calls and the dates and who called each time. Would that take a long time?
PATRICK SANFORD: I might be able to pull one up pretty quickly, I hope.
PATRICK SANFORD: So Mr. Adelson — Charlie Adelson called the undercover on 4-28.
MR. ZANGENEH: Can you say that again? I'm sorry.
PATRICK SANFORD: Mr. Adelson — Charlie Adelson called the undercover on 4-28 of '16.
PATRICK SANFORD: I do have on 5-6 is when Donna Adelson called the undercover agent and got his voicemail.
PATRICK SANFORD: The UCE actually tried to call her back. She didn't answer. And then she calls him back on the same date, all on 5-6-16 — the date that Mr. Garcia called.
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't think I have that.
PATRICK SANFORD: It is one in evidence, yes, sir.
PATRICK SANFORD: I think it was on the 28th also, because that's when he got the voicemail. That's when Mr. Garcia called the undercovers, on 4-28-16.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Charlie Adelson's call was — unfortunate, and Mr. Garcia's was—
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes. Yes, so Charlie called the undercover agent at 11:33 a.m., and Mr. Garcia called just prior to — it was around 2 o'clock p.m. that afternoon.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Just for the record, that is called the undercover call.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Garcia.
MR. DECOSTE: The call from Sigfredo Garcia that you have on 4-28 — 4-28 — that came from a handset associated with Mr. Garcia, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: I believe so. No — I don't recall exactly which handset it came from. I don't recall off the top of my head.
MR. ZANGENEH: The reason why I'm asking that question is because there's no actual voicemail left, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct, there's no voicemail.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. So you don't know who actually picked up the phone — the handset that belonged to Mr. Garcia — and made that call, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. ZANGENEH: And at that time, Mr. Garcia — who was he staying with at that time?
PATRICK SANFORD: He was staying with Ms. Magbanua.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Magbanua?
MR. DECOSTE: Agent you were asked questions about tax and employment information for bars and clubs?
PATRICK SANFORD: Correct.
MR. DECOSTE: There's no bars involved here. It's just nightclubs, right.
PATRICK SANFORD: Sure. Two nightclubs you brought up earlier.
MR. DECOSTE: Hollywood Live and Club Fae.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. ZANGENEH: You were asked about employment documentation. Were subpoenas ever sent to either of these companies, these nightclubs, to get any documentation?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not that I'm aware of, no.
MR. DECOSTE: You were asked about the communications with the undercover. Correct me if I'm wrong — there was also a text message that was sent by the undercover to Donna Adelson in the middle of the night.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MR. DECOSTE: Have you brought that up yet?
PATRICK SANFORD: I don't recall if I have or not.
MR. DECOSTE: Do you have the body of that message?
PATRICK SANFORD: Not with me.
MR. DECOSTE: It was a threatening message?
PATRICK SANFORD: Threatening? No, not really.
PATRICK SANFORD: I mean, somewhat, but—
MR. DECOSTE: Somewhat threatening?
PATRICK SANFORD: Somewhat, yes.
MR. DECOSTE: Turn your attention now to the arrest of Sigfredo Garcia.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: You remember being asked about that a minute ago?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MR. DECOSTE: With respect to Ms. Magbanua — and this ties into the same topic — you remember at one point when the state attorney's office was trying to litigate over her medical records.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay.
MR. DECOSTE: You were present for that at times, for the hearing.
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm not sure what you're asking me. Present for what?
MR. DECOSTE: Were you ever — so, this hearing, you know the timeframe, right?
PATRICK SANFORD: The hearing — the actual hearing.
MR. DECOSTE: It was like right before her arrest.
PATRICK SANFORD: Okay. No, I'm not familiar with that.
MR. DECOSTE: A couple of months before her arrest — would that sound right?
PATRICK SANFORD: I'm not sure.
MR. DECOSTE: Were you ever made aware that she was willing to voluntarily surrender?
PATRICK SANFORD: No.
MR. DECOSTE: Nothing further, Your Honor.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Redirect. Ms. Cappleman.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: You were asked about the call from Mr. Garcia to the undercover — and that was on 4-28, around 2 o'clock, you said?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And he didn't leave a voicemail, so we can't prove that was him that called the UC — was the idea, right? With me so far?
PATRICK SANFORD: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. There was a call which was admitted into evidence — LL. Who is on that call?
PATRICK SANFORD: It's Mr. Garcia.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And at what time — that's on 4-28 as well, correct?
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: So about nine minutes after the — well, I guess I need to ask you first. What time was LL placed?
PATRICK SANFORD: 2:09 p.m.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. So about nine minutes after the hang-up call to the undercover.
PATRICK SANFORD: That's correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: No further questions.
JUDGE HANKINSON: And I misspoke when I said the Garcia call was in evidence. I was mixed up — the call to the undercover is the one that's in that mix. I misspoke.
JUDGE HANKINSON: You can step down, Agent Sanford.
JUDGE HANKINSON: There were two legal questions asked that I have to deal with. Legal questions — it's not for the witness to deal with. It asked whether the video of Mr. Rivera in custody was in evidence, and the answer to that is it is not. The follow-up question to that was, why is the Rivera interview video considered hearsay but the phone calls from the wiretap are not considered hearsay? And let me say, hearsay is a very complicated subject. There are books and books written on hearsay. There are law school classes on hearsay. You cannot become a hearsay expert today. There are approximately 30 exceptions to the hearsay rule. There are circumstances where hearsay does not apply. So just accept that you're not going to become an expert on hearsay based upon your involvement in this trial. But in general, it is not hearsay when somebody takes somebody's statement and presents it against them, but it is hearsay if that person who is making the conversation tries to use it back.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I know that's a little confusing, but in other words, if it's being used against someone, it is not hearsay. If it's trying to be used by the person, it is hearsay.
JUDGE HANKINSON: That's a little confusing.
JUDGE HANKINSON: As I said, as to Mr. Rivera's statements — what he said that was inconsistent with what he said in court is admissible against him. But not everything he says is admissible in court. So that probably just fuels your confusion, but that's what I get paid to try to sort out. Done my best to do.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Y'all have a good lunch. Let's be back at 1:30, please.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Either side have any issues? See y'all at 1:30.