5.Stephen Downing — Direct/Cross/Redirect
251 linesJUDGE HANKINSON: All right. You remain under subpoena. Call your next witness.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Judge, at this time the State rests.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Okay. I need to let the jury step out.
(Jury exits.)
JUDGE HANKINSON: All right. Everybody be seated. Garcia wish to be heard on the judgment of acquittal motion?
MR. ZANGENEH: Yes, Judge. Judge, at this time Mr. Garcia asks for a judgment of acquittal as to all three counts, murder in the first degree, solicitation of murder, and conspiracy to commit murder.
we believe that no reasonable juror could come back with a finding of guilt based on the fact that all the evidence that pertains to these specification charges, the solicitation, the conspiracy, and the first degree murder charge are elicited by Luis Rivera, which is undoubtedly one of the least credible witnesses that I've seen testify in any proceeding.
He has inconsistent variations of story after story. He -- there is documentation showing that he is the person that rents the Prius. He is the person whose firearm is used in the murder. Yet, he is the only person that alleges that my client was involved in this. Now, I know the Government has a circumstantial case, but there is nothing to show a jury that my client wasn't simply an uninvolved -- an innocent conspirator or an innocent third party in a conspiracy.
Simply being -- merely being present at the place of a crime that in some way acts in furtherance of that crime, doesn't make you a potential conspirator. The only evidence that the Government has that solidifies their position is through Mr. Rivera. And we believe that based on his substantial amount of inconsistencies, as well as his, I would say, refusal to answer our questions with regards to his gang affiliation and our questions with regards to the Latin King organization, that no reasonable juror could come back with a finding of guilt.
JUDGE HANKINSON: I'‘11 deny the motion for judgment of acquittal. Magbanua?
MS. KAWASS: Thank you, Your Honor. Your Honor, on behalf of Ms. Magbanua, at this time, since the State has rested, we would renew all previous motions and objections and at this time make our first motion for judgment of acquittal as to all three counts in the case.
The Court is aware that the standard at this point is the Court is to take the evidence in a light most favorable to the State, and it is our position that even at this point they have failed to establish a prima facie case of guilt against Ms. Magbanua. This is a purely circumstantial case.
According to Ehrhardt, direct evidence is evidence which requires only the inference that what the witness said is true to prove a material fact. Circumstantial evidence is evidence which involves an additional inference to prove the material fact.
It is our position that this is a completely circumstantial case because Mr. Rivera's testimony requires inference upon inference in order to establish certain elements of the crime. For example, one of the elements in the first count, which they are charging her as a principal to first degree murder, the State has to prove that Ms. Magbanua knew that a murder was going to be committed and that she did something to assist.
The only testimony that they have at this point is from Mr. Rivera, who was impeached not only by direct evidence and records but also by his own statements. And he, essentially, is stating that -- he also testified -- sorry, Your Honor, that he had no communication with Ms. Magbanua before and that all of his information was coming through Mr. Garcia.
So at this point they don't have any evidence, number one, that she knew that there was -- a murder was going to be committed or that she did anything to assist in that event. And as the Court is very well aware, circumstantial standard, when the evidence -- a criminally accused person is circumstantial, a motion for judgment of acquittal should be granted if the State fails to present evidence from which the jury can exclude every reasonable hypothesis except that of guilt. when circumstantial evidence is relied upon for a conviction, circumstances when taken together must lead to a reasonable and moral certainty that the accused and no one else committed the offense.
And then in relation to that, Your Honor, as to the conspiracy count, a conspiracy exists when there is an express or implied agreement between two parties. The only direct evidence that the State gave in that respect was that there is phone communication between people who they don't have enough probable cause to arrest and my client.
we have also presented evidence of a reasonable explanation that is not one of guilt, which is that she was communicating with her boyfriend as well as Mr. Garcia. They admit that they do not have the contents of those conversations; and not even Mr. Rivera, who claims that he knew -- found out that it was a murder on the drive up. So there is no evidence, direct evidence or otherwise, of any agreement between anyone for her to commit murder in order to establish the conspiracy element of the murder.
Then we also -- the same argument I would say too as to the solicitation, Your Honor, because solicitation then has the commanding, hiring, requesting, or encouraging another person to commit the crime. Mr. Rivera testified that he had never spoken to her, and everything that he said came across more so as a guessing game from Mr. Rivera. You know, Mr. -- she's behind the whole thing. These were all statements that are conclusory statements that weren't based on any direct evidence.
And the case that I would have the Court turn its attention to that we're relying on in terms of how the Court is to handle this type of evidence, we are relying on Rocker v. State. It's a case that I relied on in the Arthur hearing. It's 122 So.3d 898, and that's R-O-C-K-E-R, and that's from the Second DCA from 2013. Thank you, Judge.
MR. DECOSTE: Your Honor, if we can add one thing.
(Pause in proceedings.)
MS. KAWASS: Your Honor, and also to bring to the Court's attention, I'm looking at a copy of Ms. Magbanua's charging document, and they did not charge her as a principal.
There has been no evidence in this case whatsoever that Ms. Magbanua was even in Tallahassee when Mr. Markel was killed. And the State has presented no evidence that she was the one that killed him; and they haven't charged her aS a principal, Your Honor. So they have no evidence of that.
JUDGE HANKINSON: The law is pretty clear that's not required. 1I'11 make the same ruling as to all previous motions. I deny the motion for judgment of acquittal.
Have y'all discussed the order of presentation of witnesses? We've been proceeding Garcia, Magbanua. Do y'all wish to do anything different at this point in time?
MR. ZANGENEH: No, Your Honor.
JUDGE HANKINSON: All right. So you're prepared to call your first witness?
MR. ZANGENEH: If you'll just give me a second, Judge. Mr. Padilla is taking a deposition with one of our potential witnesses in the penalty phase. And so if you'll give me a minute, I'll go --
JUDGE HANKINSON: who is your first witness going to be?
MR. ZANGENEH: It's going to be -- he's now -- it used to be Trooper Downing. Now, it's Sergeant Downing from the Florida Highway Patrol.
JUDGE HANKINSON: And we need to -- at the point you -- if you're still planning to call your gang expert, we need to discuss that before you call him.
MR. ZANGENEH: I'm not going to call him, Judge. I've released him.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Okay. All right. So you're ready with testimony? Do you think 10 minutes will give you enough?
MR. ZANGENEH: Yes.
JUDGE HANKINSON: 10 minutes?
MR. ZANGENEH: Can you give me 15 minutes, please?
MS. NORRIS: Yes, sir. And I believe the second witness the defense intends to call is Mr. Sawicki.
MR. ZANGENEH: John Sawicki, yes.
MS. NORRIS: And we've agreed that Sergeant Corbitt could be present during his testimony.
MR. ZANGENEH: Absolutely. We have no objection to that.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Okay. Fifteen minutes then, 2:45.
MS. NORRIS: Thank you.
MR. ZANGENEH: Thank you.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Let the jury know it will be 15 minutes, please.
(Court is in recess.)
JUDGE HANKINSON: Let's have the jury, please.
(jury enters.)
JUDGE HANKINSON: All right. Everybody but the witness have a seat, please. If you would, face the clerk and be sworn, please.
whereupon, SGT. STEVEN DOWNING, was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
JUDGE HANKINSON: All right. Have a seat.
Before you start, Mr. Zangeneh, let me just make a brief comment to the jury.
All right. So the State has rested their case. Now we'll proceed into the defense case. Garcia gets to go first, then Magbanua, if they choose to present anything. And then the State would have an opportunity to put on any rebuttal evidence that they desire to put on as to either of the defense cases.
So at this point in time, Mr. Garcia may call his first witness.
MR. ZANGENEH: Thank you, Your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ZENGENEH:
MR. ZANGENEH: At this time Mr. Garcia calls -- it's Sergeant now, right?
STEPHEN DOWNING: That's correct.
MR. ZANGENEH: Sergeant Downing.
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes, sir.
MR. ZANGENEH: Can you please state your name and occupation to the jury?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Sergeant Steven Downing of the Florida Highway Patrol.
MR. ZANGENEH: And how long have you been with the Florida Highway Patrol, sir?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Since 2010.
MR. ZANGENEH: And what current capacity do you have with the Florida Highway Patrol?
STEPHEN DOWNING: I'm a sergeant.
MR. ZANGENEH: And were you working with the Florida Highway Patrol, I believe, as a corporal in -- I'm sorry. I don't know what your title was, but were you with the Florida Highway Patrol in June of 2014?
STEPHEN DOWNING: That's correct.
MR. ZANGENEH: And what area would you be working in during that time period?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Alachua County.
MR. ZANGENEH: what I'm going to go ahead and publish to the members of the jury is Government's Exhibit 81. Let's see if I did that right. Yeah, I did. Okay. So I'm going to zoom this right down here. You are Trooper SMD; is that correct, sir?
STEPHEN DOWNING: That's correct.
MR. ZANGENEH: And that's your badge number right there, you're ID Number 3004?
STEPHEN DOWNING: It is.
MR. ZANGENEH: And is it fair to say that when you become a member of law enforcement with the Florida Highway Patrol, you get designated a badge number for identification purposes?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: And that was your identification purpose?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: And so on June 4th, which I believe is what the -- let's go ahead and take a look at the citation. On June 4th, 2014, at 9:12 a.m., that's what it says right there; is that correct, sir?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: You pulled over a 2011 Hyundai four-door multicolor; is that correct, sir?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: And if you want me to zoom this out a little bit so we can see it a little bit better, is that better for you, sir?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. And who did you indicate was the driver of this vehicle?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Luis Emmanuel Rivera.
MR. ZANGENEH: And you obtained that information because when you pulled the vehicle over there was somebody in the driver's seat, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Correct.
MR. ZANGENEH: And you go over to them; and you go, Can I get your license and registration and things to that effect?
STEPHEN DOWNING: That's right.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. And Mr. Rivera gave you, I assume, a driver's license?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes, I identified him by his license, whether he gave me the license or I ran it on the computer and got an ID back.
MR. ZANGENEH: And that information is what's reflected in the name, street, city, portion of the citation, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: And that citation A26, V as in Victor, Q as in quiche, M as in Mary, E as in Edward?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. Now, it also says that Mr. Rivera's date of birth is April 25, 1983. You didn't guess that, did you?
STEPHEN DOWNING: No, it came right off his license.
MR. ZANGENEH: And the Hispanic -- where it says race, you put an H. I assume that's Hispanic, sir?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: And he's a male, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Correct.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. And he -- I assume this is on his license. It says 5'4", correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: You didn't take him out of the car and measure him, did you?
STEPHEN DOWNING: I did not.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. Now, there's also some additional information with regards to the vehicle, like the license plate number of the vehicle that's on the citation; is that correct, sir?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. And you visually made this observation, wrote down the license plate, and memorialized it in this citation, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: Then the citation you gave him was going 90 miles an hour in a 70, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Correct.
MR. ZANGENEH: All right. Now, there's a portion here which says, companion citations. Is that something that you, at that time, make a determination as to what you're going to write there, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Companion citation would be an additional.
MR. ZANGENEH: Right. And was there one there?
STEPHEN DOWNING: There was not.
MR. ZANGENEH: was he driving -- was that a motorcycle?
MR. ZANGENEH: were there passengers in the vehicle?
STEPHEN DOWNING: I don't recall.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. well, if there was a passenger, would you have marked it off under passengers?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: And was this a commercial vehicle?
STEPHEN DOWNING: It's a four-door Hyundai is all I can remember.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. So you issued this citation, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: Now, would it be fair to say that law enforcement that do traffic stops -- which is a lot of what Florida Highway Patrol officers do. It's not all you do, but it's a decent amount of the work that you do?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: would it be fair to say that you guys are trained in making an observation for impairment?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Absolutely.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. And can you tell the members of the jury what kind of training you have to determine impairment?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Several hours of DUI detection. You know, we learn to observe the smells within the vehicle, the way they move, the way they talk, different things of that nature.
MR. ZANGENEH: Now, I assume because there's no accompanying arrest for DUI or driving under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs that you didn't see anything that would trigger or concern you as to whether or not the driver had been consuming drugs or alcohol, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Correct.
MR. ZANGENEH: Now, Mr. Rivera, it shows he's from Miami Beach, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. And if you ran the license of the vehicle, did it show you that it was a rental car out of Miami?
STEPHEN DOWNING: If it was registered to a rental company, it would have showed that, yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: And at any point did you suspect Mr. Rivera to be under the influence of alcohol?
STEPHEN DOWNING: If there's not an attached incident report with it, then, no.
MR. ZANGENEH: One of the things that in your training as a Florida Highway Patrol officer, do they talk to you about levels of impairment?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Sure.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. So you know the difference between someone having one drink or 12 drinks, right?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Absolutely.
MR. ZANGENEH: Now, what about with other narcotics? Do they tell you about what the distinction is between one -- I'm going to use a very common term here, bump of cocaine. Do you know what that is, a key bump?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: And that's when someone puts a little bit of cocaine on a key and uses that as a vehicle to consume the cocaine, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: Do you know how much five grams of cocaine is?
STEPHEN DOWNING: I mean, I couldn't tell you what it looked like.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. So if I told you that someone had consumed five grams of cocaine in a five-hour period, would you agree with me that that there would be substantial telltale signs of that kind of impairment?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Should be, yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. And you'll agree with me that if someone is doing cocaine inside of a car that if they are doing it during that short period of time with that amount of consumption, that there would potentially be traces of cocaine all over their clothing or on the seat next to them or maybe just -- all in places of plain view that you could see, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Could be, yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: Did you see any of that in this case?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Evidently, no. There was nothing else.
MR. ZANGENEH: But if you did, you would have done something about it, right?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Sure.
MR. ZANGENEH: And back then you were just a trooper, right?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Right.
MR. ZANGENEH: And now you're a sergeant, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: which means you've been promoted from trooper -- what is the next -- what do you go from trooper to corporal?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Corporal, that's correct.
MR. ZANGENEH: And then from corporal to sergeant, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: And you don't get these kind of promotions if you're making these kind of rookie mistakes, right?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Sure.
MR. ZANGENEH: Now, other than issuing the citation that day, how long would you say that you had, if you recall, the car pulled over?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Just an average traffic stop, I would say three to five minutes.
MR. ZANGENEH: Three to five minutes, so not an exorbitant amount of period, right? Not like you stopped them, and they had to stay there for an hour or two because drug dogs got called or anything? None of that stuff happened, right?
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. Now, as a Florida Highway Patrol officer, there's something called a dash camera. Are you familiar with that?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. A dash camera is something that's -- can you tell the jury what the dash camera is?
STEPHEN DOWNING: It is a camera in the front windshield of the vehicle that records everything that we do once our lights are activated.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. And are you aware -- or since it was your vehicle, if the State Attorney's Office or the FBI or any other arm of law enforcement wanted to get a copy of that, they wouldn't send a subpoena to you, right? It would go direct to the records department?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. Are you familiar with how the records department works?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Not exactly.
MR. ZANGENEH: Right. So you couldn't testify as to what the parameters are with regards to retrieving information, correct?
MR. ZANGENEH: But you do know that in 2014 -- in June of 2014, there was a dash camera, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: No further questions.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Magbanua?
MR. DECOSTE: No cross, Your Honor.
JUDGE HANKINSON: State?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CAPPLEMAN:
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Sergeant Downing, what's the retention time on the dash camera footage?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Back then --
MR. ZANGENEH: Judge, I'm going to object. when I asked him if he knew the specifics, he said, no.
JUDGE HANKINSON: well, you'll get redirect. Overruled.
BY MS. CAPPLEMAN:
MS. CAPPLEMAN: what's the retention time on a dash camera video?
STEPHEN DOWNING: I believe on a non-criminal case it's 30 days.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. And so if we didn't find out about this ticket or it didn't become of interest to us for a couple of years later, we wouldn't be able to get that?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Right.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. On this ticket -- let me ask you first, do you have any independent recollection of this particular traffic stop?
STEPHEN DOWNING: I do not.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Any independent memory of giving this citation?
STEPHEN DOWNING: I don't.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Any memory of the person you issued the citation to?
STEPHEN DOWNING: I don't unless I, you know, ran the license again, but --
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. But as you sit here today, you don't -- can't picture this person?
STEPHEN DOWNING: I cannot.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And you mentioned you typically get the driver's license from the driver when you are issuing a citation. If there are occupants in the vehicle, do you typically collect the driver's license from those folks as well?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Not always, no.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: For a traffic ticket you wouldn't normally, unless you had a reason to, try to identify occupants that are in the vehicle other than the driver, would you?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Correct.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. And how many citations would you say you've written since June of 2014?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Thousands.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: And your indication that there were no passengers in this particular vehicle, is that based on this box right here, this greater than or equal to 16 passengers or something else?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Basically, it defaults to no unless we put a passenger number in there.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. So have you -- let me show you what I'm going to mark for identification as State's 191 and 192. Take a moment to look that over. Do you recognize State's 191?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Does that appear to be a fair and accurate copy of a portion of the FHP policy manual?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And if you'll go to the tabbed portion there. And is this the same text that you'd see if you go to the FHP web site?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. This link here, the FHSMV.gov/courts/utc, would that be a hyperlink to go to State's 192, the Uniform Traffic Citation Training Manual?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And if you'll look at this tab in the Uniform Traffic Citation Training Manual, it looks like that 121 is only to be checked if it's --
MR. ZANGENEH: Objection, Judge.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
BY MS. CAPPLEMAN:
MS. CAPPLEMAN: It looks like that box that you checked is only to be checked if it's a 16-passenger vehicle; is that right?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Again, if you don't put a number -- it's all electronic. So if you don't go in there and physically put a number on there, it's going to default and check the “no.” It's not something I go in there and check each box.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Okay. But wouldn't you only check "yes" if it was a 16-passenger vehicle?
MR. ZANGENEH: Objection, judge. Calls for --
JUDGE HANKINSON: Your legal objection?
MR. ZANGENEH: Yes. Speculation.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Overruled.
BY MS. CAPPLEMAN:
MS. CAPPLEMAN: wouldn't you only check "yes" in the instance that this was a 16-passenger vehicle?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: All right. And a Hyundai Sonata is not a 16-passenger vehicle, is it?
STEPHEN DOWNING: It is not.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: No further questions.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Redirect?
MR. ZANGENEH: Yes.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ZENGENEH:
MR. ZANGENEH: Sergeant Downing, I know what the prosecutor --
JUDGE HANKINSON: I'm sorry. we had 191 and 192. They were just marked --
MS. CAPPLEMAN: Just for identification.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Okay. All right. I just wanted to make sure.
BY MR. ZENGENEH:
MR. ZANGENEH: Sergeant Downing, you know what the prosecutor just showed you saying that that only applies to if you have over 16 passengers or not, right?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Right.
MR. ZANGENEH: That's not what you thought of when you wrote this ticket, right?
STEPHEN DOWNING: It was not.
MR. ZANGENEH: Right. what you thought of was that there was no passengers, and that's what I wrote, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Again, unless I specifically went in there and put a number in -- I can say for a fact that on many citations that, you know, they may have passengers; but that would be something that I would forget to go in there and plot -- or put a number on. It would always default to "no." It's not something that we have to -- it's not something we're required to do on a citation, as far as before it lets us submit it.
MR. ZANGENEH: Okay. Do you recall taking a deposition in September of 2018, sir?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Sure.
MR. ZANGENEH: And do you recall that Mr. DeCoste and myself were there, correct?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Uh-huh. Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: And I'm going to, Sergeant -- it's now Sergeant Downing's deposition, page 7, lines 17 to 22. And we asked you, And there might be a section on there that has passengers. I can't remember.
I'm sorry. This is your answer. I'm sorry. Let me go to 15 to 22, Judge.
So the note section would be what part -- would be the part where it says, other violations or comments pertaining to offense. And you wrote -- and there might be a section on there that has passengers. I can't remember. These are old electronic ones.
Question, Can you take a look? And you took a look. And it says, Yeah, it says, no passengers. That's why I have marked -- that's what -- that's why I have that marked.
Do you recall that, sir?
STEPHEN DOWNING: Yes.
MR. ZANGENEH: No further questions, Judge.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Okay. Any juror have a question of this witness? All right. You can step down.
STEPHEN DOWNING: Thank you, sir.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Do you need to keep him any further?
MR. ZANGENEH: Not for me, Judge.
JUDGE HANKINSON: Anybody need him further?
MR. DECOSTE: No, Your Honor.
MS. CAPPLEMAN: No, sir.
JUDGE HANKINSON: All right. You're excused. Thank you. Call your next witness.